Setup my first native tank (a 30 long) only two weeks ago and they're already tied for my favorite "category" of fish! I've got a green sunfish (who'll have the 30 long to himself soon) and a Greenside darter pair. When I collected them I wasn't that interested in darters but after keeping them for only 14 days I'm now in love with the little fish are their personalities! I'm soon going to be selling all of the cichlid fry left in my 20 tall and want to turn it into a native tank once they're all sold. It's a 20 tall with dimensions of 24" x 12" x 16.5". For decor I'm going to get rocks from my local creek and stock them up going diagonal so there's multiple level of rocks and crevices for the darters to poke in and out of. So two fish that will definitely be in it will be my Greenside pair. However just those two fish would be a pretty lacking tank so I'd like a few other fish. Since I had an awesome time collecting fish the other day with my local fish club I'd like the fish I stock it with to be collectible from at least one of three local waterway: the allegheny river (close to lock 3), Deer Creek, or Pine Creek (for those who live in or around pittsburgh you'll know the locations and probably what fish are in them). All three of these waterways are in Allegheny County going through or around Pittsburgh for those unaware. I'd look a good few more fish but don't want to overstock to the point I have to change much more than 30% of the water weekly, filtration by the way is a sponge filter rated for a 50 gallon and I remove all solid waste via weekly siphoning. Some fish that I considered are about every local shiner or dace (spotfin shiners are a personal favorite but I also really like emerald shiners and longnose dace), some other species of darters (preferably another pair, maybe rainbows or bluebreasts), orangespotted sunfish, and something I'd really like to keep would be a stonecat (I've heard mixed opinions about their max size being anything from 6-12") although I'm slightly fearful if a stonecat got much bigger than 6" that it'd start to see my darters and minnows as lunch.
So final stock would be something like this:
6 X some type of local shiner or dace
2 X Greenside Darters (pair)
2 X another type of local darter (pair)
1 X Stonecat (stonecat is only if I can get ahold of one and it won't get to large)
Feel free to tweak the stock and leave any suggestions for good fish to add (have to be in one of the three waterways I listed above).
PS, here's the tank information:
Dimensions: 24" long X 12" Width X 16" Height
Lighting: 3:00 PM - 9:00 PM (plus ambient daylight, which there's a LOT of during the summer)
Filtration: Deep Blue Pro Sponge 50
Water Changes: 25-30% weekly (I'm willing to do up to 50% weekly if, but don't want to shock wild fish)
Substrate: Loose Gravel
Decor: Creek Rocks
Temperature: room temp (64-78 F)
pH: 7.6
Feeding: Frozen or Live twice daily
What do you guys think?
Stocking a 20 Tall
Started by
Sean Phillips
, Jun 13 2014 03:51 PM
26 replies to this topic
#1
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:51 PM
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#2
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:30 PM
Drop the stonecat idea right away. You will lose anything that can fit in it's mouth, and you will rarely see it. If you want a catfish, go with a much smaller madtom.
#3
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:51 PM
Drop the stonecat idea right away. You will lose anything that can fit in it's mouth, and you will rarely see it. If you want a catfish, go with a much smaller madtom.
Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. I'd gladly do another madtom expect a few things: it has to be one local to native bodies of water and the stonecat is the only one of 5 or 6 local madtoms that isn't listed by the PFBC as endangered and it's illegal (in PA) to posess state endangered fish that were obtained in the state. Unless somebody knows of another way to get a different species of local madtom without provoking the wrath of the fish commission then I'll just forget getting a catfish.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#4
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:09 PM
I've found Tadpole Madtoms as contaminants in shipments of feeder Ghost Shrimp. Strictly speaking that makes no difference legally.
#5
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:13 PM
I am not sure if purchasing a madtom would work legally or not for you, you would have to look into it. Then you would have a bill of sale proving it's origin.
#6
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:03 PM
I am not sure if purchasing a madtom would work legally or not for you, you would have to look into it. Then you would have a bill of sale proving it's origin.
Hmm, in PA it's also illegal to sell natives but the owner of my favorite LFS told me he often gets in natives with feeders and is more than happy to give them away for free so if it's from another state and not purchased but still considered native the PFBC can't really do anyhting (like they'd come to my house anyway
) so I'll talk to him next time I go about it. Moving on to other stock: we're up to 2 greenside darters, 1 smaller madtom species, what next?
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#7
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:28 PM
Call the DNR, and ask them about purchased native aquarium fish. They may say as long as you have a bill of sale, that it is legal.
Southern redbelly dace?
Southern redbelly dace?
#8
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:49 PM
Didn't know there were any around here until I just looked it up. If I can get ahold of a nice school then I'll gladly go with them for my minnows. So now I'm up to: 2 Greenside darters, 1 smaller madtom, 5-6 southern redbelly dace, and finally what other type of darter pair should I do?
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#9
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:12 PM
PA doesn't care where you got an endangered fish, if it's endangered or threatened, simple possession without a permit is illegal. Permits are not issued for private keeping. That said, the fish is there. The owner isn't even selling or trading it which actually makes all the difference in the world under PA law in regards to state endangered plant species. But in the end it is illegal.
#10
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:28 PM
PA doesn't care where you got an endangered fish, if it's endangered or threatened, simple possession without a permit is illegal. Permits are not issued for private keeping. That said, the fish is there. The owner isn't even selling or trading it which actually makes all the difference in the world under PA law in regards to state endangered plant species. But in the end it is illegal.
So, are you saying I could collect one while while it would be illegal it isn't exactly "wrong" in most people's eyes.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#11
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:42 PM
Let's stop here guys. Subrosa, your post does not really convey your point very well. Could you expound? Are SRBD listed in Pa? What are you saying?
Everything fish, it really does not matter what people think may or may not be ethical. The law is the law, and we do our best here to follow it. We may not always like or agree with it, but if we want our hobby to remain legal in most states, it is very important that we practice it within the law.
Everything fish, it really does not matter what people think may or may not be ethical. The law is the law, and we do our best here to follow it. We may not always like or agree with it, but if we want our hobby to remain legal in most states, it is very important that we practice it within the law.
#12
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:00 PM
What are SRBDs? I wouldn't have gone so far as to break the law Matt, I was just wondering what people here's general opinion was, not that I'd go through with illegally collecting, PFBC has been cranking up waterway patrolman officer lately as well so even if I tried (which I wouldn't) I'd probably get busted. Let's just move on from the madtom and try to determine what the other pair if darters should be.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#13
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:01 PM
Southern Red Belly Dace = SRBD
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#14
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:15 PM
Oh, I am not making any accusations here. Things simply need to be clarified. I am more interested in what point Subrosa was making. Maybe I am dense, but I think I missed the point. I don't expect that many who come here are interested in breaking any laws, most are very conservation oriented. But as a moderator, I have to bring up the point of staying within the bounds of the law whenever something comes up that sounds remotely on the edge. I am sure you understand.
#15
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:22 PM
Your other options as far as darter go, are almost unlimited. Whatever is legal in your state will work fine. Honestly greenside darters are one of the tougher species. You need to keep them loaded with plenty of frozen foods, and I think snails are the key to keeping them healthy. Drop as many snails into the tank weekly as you can collect. Other than that, take your pick.
#16
Guest_Doug_Dame_*
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:20 PM
(1) Re the state-listed species, there's just no upside of dancing close to the fire. You don't want a stonecat's mouth in an aquarium with smaller fish, that would not work out well. If all the other madtoms found in PA are state-listed, then avoid them; you'll sleep better knowing you have no risks should you or anybody else discuss your fish collection online, or share pictures.
But pay close attention to the exact nuances of the regulations in your state. Does the definition of "native fish" only include fish found in the wild in PA ? If so, then any small madtoms NOT found natively in PA would be fair game. (Assuming they're not state-listed where you get them.)
How about fish purchased out of state? Can you keep a PA-species, if you can document that *YOURS* were purchased from a non-PA source ?
Finally, can you keep a PA-species, if YOU catch your particular specimens out-of-state ? Even if legal, this is still the riskiest approach ... you conceivably could find yourself with a citation some day, and to negate the fine have to prove to a skeptical judge that you'd gotten it, legitimately, out of state. (When it comes to citations, as opposed to criminal actions, it seems like the citation-writing officer is usually given all the benefits of doubt.) One sure way of avoiding that potential hassle is to simply not to keep fish species that fall into that category, in your jurisdiction. Even if they love you dearly, fish you collect yourself will not testify on your behalf, and they don't have ID papers or fingerprints to establish their provenance.
(2) Re other good fish ... rainbow darters are colorful, have great personality, and do well in aquariums. (And with other fish, in my experience.) They'd be an easy choice for me !
But pay close attention to the exact nuances of the regulations in your state. Does the definition of "native fish" only include fish found in the wild in PA ? If so, then any small madtoms NOT found natively in PA would be fair game. (Assuming they're not state-listed where you get them.)
How about fish purchased out of state? Can you keep a PA-species, if you can document that *YOURS* were purchased from a non-PA source ?
Finally, can you keep a PA-species, if YOU catch your particular specimens out-of-state ? Even if legal, this is still the riskiest approach ... you conceivably could find yourself with a citation some day, and to negate the fine have to prove to a skeptical judge that you'd gotten it, legitimately, out of state. (When it comes to citations, as opposed to criminal actions, it seems like the citation-writing officer is usually given all the benefits of doubt.) One sure way of avoiding that potential hassle is to simply not to keep fish species that fall into that category, in your jurisdiction. Even if they love you dearly, fish you collect yourself will not testify on your behalf, and they don't have ID papers or fingerprints to establish their provenance.
(2) Re other good fish ... rainbow darters are colorful, have great personality, and do well in aquariums. (And with other fish, in my experience.) They'd be an easy choice for me !
#17
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:18 AM
My point is that possessing any fish which PA lists as state endangered or threatened is illegal without a permit, and that they won't issue a permit for private individuals to keep them. SRBD are indeed listed, so it's illegal to keep them. So are Tadpole Madtoms, which are infrequently found in the feeder shrimp tanks of PA aquarium stores, and Swamp Darters which are very frequently found in the same tanks. The question which I raised is what should be done about them once they're here?
#18
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:21 AM
Under the wording of the law in PA there is no distinction made regarding the source of a fish. A Swamp Darter is just as illegal if you get it from a FL fish farm as a contaminant with feeder shrimp as if you seined the lower Delaware River drainage and collected it.(1) Re the state-listed species, there's just no upside of dancing close to the fire. You don't want a stonecat's mouth in an aquarium with smaller fish, that would not work out well. If all the other madtoms found in PA are state-listed, then avoid them; you'll sleep better knowing you have no risks should you or anybody else discuss your fish collection online, or share pictures.
But pay close attention to the exact nuances of the regulations in your state. Does the definition of "native fish" only include fish found in the wild in PA ? If so, then any small madtoms NOT found natively in PA would be fair game. (Assuming they're not state-listed where you get them.)
How about fish purchased out of state? Can you keep a PA-species, if you can document that *YOURS* were purchased from a non-PA source ?
Finally, can you keep a PA-species, if YOU catch your particular specimens out-of-state ? Even if legal, this is still the riskiest approach ... you conceivably could find yourself with a citation some day, and to negate the fine have to prove to a skeptical judge that you'd gotten it, legitimately, out of state. (When it comes to citations, as opposed to criminal actions, it seems like the citation-writing officer is usually given all the benefits of doubt.) One sure way of avoiding that potential hassle is to simply not to keep fish species that fall into that category, in your jurisdiction. Even if they love you dearly, fish you collect yourself will not testify on your behalf, and they don't have ID papers or fingerprints to establish their provenance.
(2) Re other good fish ... rainbow darters are colorful, have great personality, and do well in aquariums. (And with other fish, in my experience.) They'd be an easy choice for me !
#19
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:27 AM
I don't for one second pretend to know how other people see things with their eyes, but I can't imagine any reasonable person would look kindly upon your collecting an endangered species. How they would look upon acquiring one from a feeder shrimp tank is a more individual and complicated question. I know that for many years before I discovered they were a state endangered species that I kept Swamp Darters found in the manner I described. I know that the official NANFA position is to not break laws regarding the keeping of listed species, and that therefore there is no way you can keep any PA listed species without running afoul of this position. Sorry if I confused you by referring to the PA plant code.So, are you saying I could collect one while while it would be illegal it isn't exactly "wrong" in most people's eyes.
#20
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:42 AM
Under PA law there is no gray area near the edge. It is 100% cut and dried. Which leaves state listed fish entering the Commonwealth in the manner I described in somewhat of a lurch, wouldn't you agree on a strictly personal level?Oh, I am not making any accusations here. Things simply need to be clarified. I am more interested in what point Subrosa was making. Maybe I am dense, but I think I missed the point. I don't expect that many who come here are interested in breaking any laws, most are very conservation oriented. But as a moderator, I have to bring up the point of staying within the bounds of the law whenever something comes up that sounds remotely on the edge. I am sure you understand.
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