Stocking a 20 Tall
#1
Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:51 PM
So final stock would be something like this:
6 X some type of local shiner or dace
2 X Greenside Darters (pair)
2 X another type of local darter (pair)
1 X Stonecat (stonecat is only if I can get ahold of one and it won't get to large)
Feel free to tweak the stock and leave any suggestions for good fish to add (have to be in one of the three waterways I listed above).
PS, here's the tank information:
Dimensions: 24" long X 12" Width X 16" Height
Lighting: 3:00 PM - 9:00 PM (plus ambient daylight, which there's a LOT of during the summer)
Filtration: Deep Blue Pro Sponge 50
Water Changes: 25-30% weekly (I'm willing to do up to 50% weekly if, but don't want to shock wild fish)
Substrate: Loose Gravel
Decor: Creek Rocks
Temperature: room temp (64-78 F)
pH: 7.6
Feeding: Frozen or Live twice daily
What do you guys think?
#2 Guest_Skipjack_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:30 PM
#3
Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:51 PM
Drop the stonecat idea right away. You will lose anything that can fit in it's mouth, and you will rarely see it. If you want a catfish, go with a much smaller madtom.
Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. I'd gladly do another madtom expect a few things: it has to be one local to native bodies of water and the stonecat is the only one of 5 or 6 local madtoms that isn't listed by the PFBC as endangered and it's illegal (in PA) to posess state endangered fish that were obtained in the state. Unless somebody knows of another way to get a different species of local madtom without provoking the wrath of the fish commission then I'll just forget getting a catfish.
#4 Guest_Subrosa_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:09 PM
#5 Guest_Skipjack_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:13 PM
#6
Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:03 PM
I am not sure if purchasing a madtom would work legally or not for you, you would have to look into it. Then you would have a bill of sale proving it's origin.
Hmm, in PA it's also illegal to sell natives but the owner of my favorite LFS told me he often gets in natives with feeders and is more than happy to give them away for free so if it's from another state and not purchased but still considered native the PFBC can't really do anyhting (like they'd come to my house anyway ) so I'll talk to him next time I go about it. Moving on to other stock: we're up to 2 greenside darters, 1 smaller madtom species, what next?
#7 Guest_Skipjack_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:28 PM
Southern redbelly dace?
#8
Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:49 PM
#9 Guest_Subrosa_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:12 PM
#10
Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:28 PM
PA doesn't care where you got an endangered fish, if it's endangered or threatened, simple possession without a permit is illegal. Permits are not issued for private keeping. That said, the fish is there. The owner isn't even selling or trading it which actually makes all the difference in the world under PA law in regards to state endangered plant species. But in the end it is illegal.
So, are you saying I could collect one while while it would be illegal it isn't exactly "wrong" in most people's eyes.
#11 Guest_Skipjack_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:42 PM
Everything fish, it really does not matter what people think may or may not be ethical. The law is the law, and we do our best here to follow it. We may not always like or agree with it, but if we want our hobby to remain legal in most states, it is very important that we practice it within the law.
#12
Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:00 PM
#13
Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:01 PM
#14 Guest_Skipjack_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:15 PM
#15 Guest_Skipjack_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:22 PM
#16 Guest_Doug_Dame_*
Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:20 PM
But pay close attention to the exact nuances of the regulations in your state. Does the definition of "native fish" only include fish found in the wild in PA ? If so, then any small madtoms NOT found natively in PA would be fair game. (Assuming they're not state-listed where you get them.)
How about fish purchased out of state? Can you keep a PA-species, if you can document that *YOURS* were purchased from a non-PA source ?
Finally, can you keep a PA-species, if YOU catch your particular specimens out-of-state ? Even if legal, this is still the riskiest approach ... you conceivably could find yourself with a citation some day, and to negate the fine have to prove to a skeptical judge that you'd gotten it, legitimately, out of state. (When it comes to citations, as opposed to criminal actions, it seems like the citation-writing officer is usually given all the benefits of doubt.) One sure way of avoiding that potential hassle is to simply not to keep fish species that fall into that category, in your jurisdiction. Even if they love you dearly, fish you collect yourself will not testify on your behalf, and they don't have ID papers or fingerprints to establish their provenance.
(2) Re other good fish ... rainbow darters are colorful, have great personality, and do well in aquariums. (And with other fish, in my experience.) They'd be an easy choice for me !
#17 Guest_Subrosa_*
Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:18 AM
#18 Guest_Subrosa_*
Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:21 AM
Under the wording of the law in PA there is no distinction made regarding the source of a fish. A Swamp Darter is just as illegal if you get it from a FL fish farm as a contaminant with feeder shrimp as if you seined the lower Delaware River drainage and collected it.(1) Re the state-listed species, there's just no upside of dancing close to the fire. You don't want a stonecat's mouth in an aquarium with smaller fish, that would not work out well. If all the other madtoms found in PA are state-listed, then avoid them; you'll sleep better knowing you have no risks should you or anybody else discuss your fish collection online, or share pictures.
But pay close attention to the exact nuances of the regulations in your state. Does the definition of "native fish" only include fish found in the wild in PA ? If so, then any small madtoms NOT found natively in PA would be fair game. (Assuming they're not state-listed where you get them.)
How about fish purchased out of state? Can you keep a PA-species, if you can document that *YOURS* were purchased from a non-PA source ?
Finally, can you keep a PA-species, if YOU catch your particular specimens out-of-state ? Even if legal, this is still the riskiest approach ... you conceivably could find yourself with a citation some day, and to negate the fine have to prove to a skeptical judge that you'd gotten it, legitimately, out of state. (When it comes to citations, as opposed to criminal actions, it seems like the citation-writing officer is usually given all the benefits of doubt.) One sure way of avoiding that potential hassle is to simply not to keep fish species that fall into that category, in your jurisdiction. Even if they love you dearly, fish you collect yourself will not testify on your behalf, and they don't have ID papers or fingerprints to establish their provenance.
(2) Re other good fish ... rainbow darters are colorful, have great personality, and do well in aquariums. (And with other fish, in my experience.) They'd be an easy choice for me !
#19 Guest_Subrosa_*
Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:27 AM
I don't for one second pretend to know how other people see things with their eyes, but I can't imagine any reasonable person would look kindly upon your collecting an endangered species. How they would look upon acquiring one from a feeder shrimp tank is a more individual and complicated question. I know that for many years before I discovered they were a state endangered species that I kept Swamp Darters found in the manner I described. I know that the official NANFA position is to not break laws regarding the keeping of listed species, and that therefore there is no way you can keep any PA listed species without running afoul of this position. Sorry if I confused you by referring to the PA plant code.So, are you saying I could collect one while while it would be illegal it isn't exactly "wrong" in most people's eyes.
#20 Guest_Subrosa_*
Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:42 AM
Under PA law there is no gray area near the edge. It is 100% cut and dried. Which leaves state listed fish entering the Commonwealth in the manner I described in somewhat of a lurch, wouldn't you agree on a strictly personal level?Oh, I am not making any accusations here. Things simply need to be clarified. I am more interested in what point Subrosa was making. Maybe I am dense, but I think I missed the point. I don't expect that many who come here are interested in breaking any laws, most are very conservation oriented. But as a moderator, I have to bring up the point of staying within the bounds of the law whenever something comes up that sounds remotely on the edge. I am sure you understand.
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