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Southern redbelly dace for planted aquarium?

Started by Guest_Leo1234_* , Jun 26 2014 11:20 AM

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#1 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:20 AM

I read that they can take high temperatures up to low 80's and that they eat detrus. Is this true? I was thinking that I could get a school of 7 of the dace. Also would they eat the old leaves that plants shed in an aquarium? I will still feed them freshwater frenzy and also bloodworms.

The other fish I would want is a redside dace, but I do not know how well they would do.

My planted aquarium has no lid, but has 3 species of dwarf water lily in the aquarium covering most of the surface. There is a ton of hiding space in the 20 gallon. The temperature I do not know, but I assume that it does get into the low 80's. I have fathead minnows, red shiners, one mudminnow, and a golden redhorse in the aquarium (the golden redhorse is only 2in and I will keep him in the 20 until he can be with brown bullhead catfish that is 6in. I know how big they get and everything).

so, would the southern redbelly dace and/or the redside dace do well?

Thanks.

#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 01:50 PM

Once again Leo, that temperature is going to be tough. The SRBD might do okay, but redside dace like cooler temps. You have mentioned that your tanks hit 84 degrees. Both of these species are headwater species, and will start to feel uncomfortable in the 80's.

Also both species are big jumpers. Your plants will help, but they seem to find even the smallest opening.

Good luck. You wont know how it works until you try it.

#3 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:03 PM

Thank you for the help. The reason I put that it gets to 84 is because that is what my 45 gallon gets to so I assume the temperature.is similar if not the same. Right now I know that my 45 gets to 80, but it might get up to 84 during the end of the summer. Are redside dace more temperature tolerant than sculpin? My sculpin died and I do not know why since It died in the middle of the night.
When you say "big jumpers" do you mean like a fathead minnow? more or less likely than that?

What one should I get to try out first?

I will let you know my experiences with the dace.

Edited by Leo1234, 26 June 2014 - 04:11 PM.

#4 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:58 PM

.
When you say "big jumpers" do you mean like a fathead minnow? more or less likely than that?

From my experience with redsides and SRBD, it is a good idea to have a lid or some other type of barrier to keep them from jumping out.

#5 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

Jumper scale of 1-10. Fathead 4. Dace 8.

Redside dace are more heat tolerant than sculpin, but not as tolerant as a fathead minnow. I told you a while back that you could not maintain sculpin at these temps.I am not just telling you things because I enjoy it. Your sculpin died because they need cool temperatures, and 80 is simply too high.

If you are dead set on keeping dace, by all means go with SRBD. They have a much better chance than redsides. At least temperature wise. Without a lid, it is 50/50. Within a couple months, you will have scraped your last dace up off of the floor.

I am not trying to be mean, or discouraging, just realistic.

#6 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:18 AM

Jumper scale of 1-10. Fathead 4. Dace 8.

I am not trying to be mean, or discouraging, just realistic.

Yep, I agree about jumping. Wouldn't waste good dace in an uncovered tank - and I use uncovered tanks myself when I can.

In the spirit of not being mean but realistic, the 20 is overcrowded now. A school of dace would be a bad idea. Besides all that extra waste and oxygen consumption, the lack of swimming room and crowding will be bad for the fishes' mental health. You may not see it right off, but when temps start to creep up, those dace will be popping out of the tank like rockets.
Not to mention, as they get more stressed, the weakest fish in the tank will come down with some creepin' crud, and next thing you know, kaboom....

#7 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 08:41 AM

what type of lid/cover would you recommend? Also, I would replace the fathead minnows with dace and put the fatheads in the pond in my back yard.

Edited by Leo1234, 27 June 2014 - 08:43 AM.

#8 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:45 AM

sorry for double posting, it would not let me edit the previous post...

I guess if I cant find a lid that will not block my T-5 lights then I will not get the dace.

My stock list in my 20 gallon is:

8-11 fathead minnows
3 red shiners
1 eastern mudminnows
3 hogchockers
1 golden redhorse

I need something to eat the decaying plant material, but not the live plants. I've tried snails, but they just flip themselves over and die... would the dace hide a lot or would they swim in the front where there is open space? All my fathead minnows hide under my cabomba until I put a frozen bloodworm cube in for them to attack (and they go into a feeding frenzy).

Thank you for the help, please post anymore information you have to give to me.

#9 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 10:00 AM

Jumping usually happens at the tank edges. If you cover all the edges (3-inch wide) and just leave the center open, that will greatly reduce the chance of minnows jumping. On a typical 20-long tank (30 x 12" frame), a 3" perimeter strip of glass, acrylic, needlpoint screen, or plastic sign-board will still leave you a 24 x 6 inch unobstructed opening for the lights. You can even angle it upward at 45 degrees for better protection, like the top of a security fence.

Redbelly dace do need veggies and may nibble at decaying leaves but I would not count on them to eliminate all the shed leaves from your plants; use a siphon or net for that. Cooked peas, sweet potato, and squash are good foods for redbellies and pretty much all omnivorous fish (and many "carnivores" too!)

#10 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 10:45 AM

what type of lid/cover would you recommend?

You can also try these links to previous discussions for some ideas of how to retain jumpers and still use lights;

http://forum.nanfa.o...nce#entry119608

http://forum.nanfa.o...ank +top +fence

#11 Guest_AMcCaleb_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 01:28 PM

I need something to eat the decaying plant material, but not the live plants. I've tried snails, but they just flip themselves over and die... would the dace hide a lot or would they swim in the front where there is open space? All my fathead minnows hide under my cabomba until I put a frozen bloodworm cube in for them to attack (and they go into a feeding frenzy).

I have SRBDs in my planted tank and they don't touch any of the plant material. I don't know where you heard from that they eat detritus but that's not been my experience in any way, shape, or form. They will eat pellets, flakes, bloodworms, and anything else that you put in there but I haven't seen them once act as a cleaner of any sort. They will swim in the foreground of the tank though. They aren't shy fish. They will most definitely jump out of the tank if they have an opening to. They won't bother your plants at all either. They are good fish for a planted tank, but worthless in any cleaning capacity.

#12 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 02:41 PM

I will try redside dace, southern redbelly dace, and might try mountain redbelly dace. How temperature tolerant are mountain redbelly dace if they are tank raised and from the southern part of their range? the aquarium has a ~1in edge along the inside, but I will try to get it to a 3in edge

#13 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:39 PM

Some of the central NC creeks where I find Mtn redbellies get up to 80-ish in summer. They're just plain-looking brown minnows with a grey-black stripe at that temperature, but apparently they can survive it for a couple months each summer. The red and gold color disappears at about 72F or higher. The NC Museum in Raleigh has mtn redbellies that stay colored up all year-round, kept at 60-70F i think.

#14 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:17 PM

Do they look like this when at that temperature? http://www.aquacultu...belly-Dace.html

what do the other dace look like out of breeding season/ higher temperatures?

Edited by Leo1234, 27 June 2014 - 05:18 PM.

#15 Guest_steve_*

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:25 PM

Interestingly, I've found that the redside dace actually have better color in my tanks than they do when I collect them.

#16 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:26 PM

I've read on this one document that redside dace can take warm-water as long as there is enough O2 in the water.

My dad will be building a screen lid for the tank. I also found an aquarium fan that I'm told that will lower my aquarium temperature 5 degrees

Once I get the screen I will get the dace.

Edited by Leo1234, 28 June 2014 - 03:29 PM.

#17 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 04:30 PM

A screen cover will be good and is an excellent idea or like mentioned a "fence" around the sides of the tank. Yes, dace can take warm water as long as there is enough O2. This depends a lot on circulation, and surface area. Gerald spoke of pools that were 80 degrees with mountain redbelly dace in them, but this is an outdoor pool with (assuming) a fairly large surface area for gas exchange. Additionally there are certainly cooler spots in the pool, and night time cool downs. Quite different than an aquarium. Not saying it won't work, it certainly can, but remember you need a lot of gas exchange to achieve this. so lots of flow, and ideally a cool spot in the house.

The fan I am guessing is not worth messing with. If your house's ambient temp is higher than the aquarium, the fan will heat up the tank. If your house's ambient temp is lower, it will cool the tank. It is a break even. Fans do not cool anything, they just move air. I know that this is hard to understand since they make you feel cooler, but it is true. Put a tank in a room with a stable temperature, and after a day, take the temp. Then put a fan on it, and it will still be the same. You do have some benefit from being out west, where you can benefit from some evaporative cooling. I would not count on much though, considering the tank has a small surface for evaporation..

Also, you are still way better off with Chrosomus, than you are with Clinostomus. Redside dace are a bit touchy. I have had trouble with them, when only collected an hour from my home.

So get your temps down, and keep your fish in the tank, and you have a shot at this. Or look at some less jumpy, and more heat tolerant fish. Cyprinella, Fundulus,and Gambusia, come to mind.

#18 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:18 PM

In the 20 gallon I have 1 airstone and a filter that the box said was for a 40 gallon. I might add one more airstone or get a powerhead and set it at low. the 20 gallon is
~1ft tall, ~1 wide, 30in long. would another airstone work better or a powerhead since this is a planted aquarium?

#19 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:49 PM

Airstones exchange gas from the water they move. Virtually no O2 is picked up by the bubble stream, Almost all is from the turnover. The bubbles bring deep water to the surface, and the water exchanges gasses there.

Anything that moves water, particularly towards the surface will help greatly to oxygenate the water. So take your pick. Airstones are cheap, and you can't have too many. If you have a good air pump, add air stones. If not, make a decision, powerhead or air. I would go with a bigger pump, as it can service multiple tanks.

This pump will service many tanks. http://www.ebay.com/...=item43caac4bac

I have the same pump aerating the shallow end of my 1/4 acre pond. Still going strong at 3-4 years.

I have no clue about whether airstones are better or worse in a planted tank.

#20 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 06:23 AM

Airstones drive off CO2, which is what want for the fish, but it is also the CO2 plants need when the lights are on. As a general rule, as little aeration as possible when live plants are the goal, 'specially with extra light. Heck, the serious plant people ADD CO2 for their plants. Air is a good supplement for non-planted tanks and cheap way to add water movement, but it is NOT substitution for adequate filtration.