85 replies to this topic

[dac343]

Its the Licking River in KY, corbicula are present in pretty good numbers but many of the mussel species are doing quite well. A good portion of what you see are endangered Fanshell mussels (Cyprogenia stegaria)

[mikez]

OK, first, as has already been pointed out, muscrats LOVE mussels and their midden piles litter the shore in many of our lakes. I have personally watched them drag mussels on shore and knawed them open. I have also watched a muskrat catch a cold stunned bluegill and drag that on shore.

Regarding the suggestion of a "No Discussion" policy on mussles, well, hard for me to be diplomatic when I strain to restrain my reaction to "NO DISCUSSION". This drove me once from the forum already [probably a good thing for the rest of you]. How can you expect the average person to know such an arcane and obscure fact or to understand the issue if we're not allowed to discuss it.

Here in Ma, in most of our polluted, algae and sewerage loaded ponds, freshwater mussels blanket the bottom. Locally I see Asian people collecting them with invasive apple snails. For 999 out of 1000 people, they would have no clue that there are places where mussels are in trouble. Where do you want them to find that info if not here?

[Moontanman]

I am a bit embarrassed by the muskrat fiasco, I trapped them for more than 10 years, cut open hundreds of them and never once saw any indication they were eating meat. But I must have missed the remains of fish and or crustaceans, I don't know if clams would leave identifiable traces in the stomachs or not.

I do know one thing, muskrats are very good to eat...

[littlen]

Thinking we need a blanket rule of no discussion of captive mussels. Corbicula, sure we can all ID them, but how many of us are actually good with mussels. Also they are so endangered and so illegal to possess in so many places. We should simply ID them stream side and keep it at that. Not saying we need to actually make a rule, though maybe we should, but it sure does not represent NANFA well to state and fed agencies. It looks awful when we say, "I have mussels in my tank" "Oh yeah, what species?" "dunno" then the conversation goes to whether they are legal, and of course without knowing the species it is another "dunno". I am not liking it.

Sorry Michael for jumping in your thread here, assuming you have collected Corbicula.

Mike--I think Matt was saying that we shouldn't discuss collecting them or in a husbandry sense. Most of them are endangered and illegal to collect/keep as it is. IMO, mussels are less identifiable to the average NANFAn than many of the fish species we keep and we shouldn't discuss keeping any potentially illegal species at home--shelled or scaled alike. It is against our policies to do so and a lot of threads have been locked because of similar discussions. A lot of folks have a hard enough time ID'ing shiners and other fish. So shy of ID'ing a species stream side, we should discourage folks for collecting & keeping them.

I am all for the sharing of thoughts, ideas, facts, and general info about our native species. From time to time good discussions pop up on plants and inverts. But remember the "F" in nanFa stands for fish, so I think it fair that we have some rigidity on not getting too deep into collection and husbandry of our native mussels. There are some very knowledgeable mussel folks on here---one of which I am most certainly not. I frequently use mussel and clam interchangeably, it's sad I know! Apologies Matt if I am not saying what you meant.

[Matt DeLaVega]

That is exactly what I meant. There is no need for someone here to incriminate himself/herself by talking about freshwater mussels that they brought home last week that are most likely breaking state law if not federal law. ID them streamside, discuss them, make fun of yourself when you brought some home to keep back when you were 12, whatever. Just don't cross the line, and if you read a post where some new member, or old member crosses the line mention it to them ASAP. Also obviously for NANFA's sake we don't need mussel captive care discusssions on here. Just use common sense, and help those who may be unaware of their legal status.

[gerald]

I wonder if any native fish collectors have ended up with a river mussel in their tank accidentally by collecting fish with attached glochidia (= mussel larvae, short-term parasites on fish). I suspect it happens, but the mussels usually get eaten or die before anybody sees them.

Re muskrats, the mussel people I've talked to tell me that muskrats do most of their meat-eating in winter when soft plant food is scarce, and when they really need that extra protein and fat.

[Moontanman]

I was looking for the laws concerning mussels in WV and so far I can't find any, does anyone know?

[Isaac Szabo]

I found a few references stating that all mussels are protected in WV. Here is an example (in the introduction): http://www.wvdnr.gov... March 2014.pdf

[mikez]

Obviously I get excited about a "No Discussion" policy. Maybe a sticky is in order, though I confess I personally never read those.

Over the years, my widespread forum experience suggests the most good is done by allowing reasonable dialog and attempting to set the newbies on the correct path by educating them [preferably NOT by making them feel foolish which sadly still happens here too much, though not as bad as it used to be].

Just like when someone accidently, in good faith, fails to notice a protected plain silver minnow mixed into their bucket of plain silver minnows, someone uneducated might ask about bringing home mussels. I don't see how NANFA or the forum is culpable in such a mistake. I believe it's important that dialog be allowed concerning such a mistake in order to correct it and help other prevent it.

To me the issue with mussels is they don't make suitable captives. That includes the highly abundant pond species which [I don't think] are not protected.
Just plain shouldn't keep 'em, even the legal ones.

But we should be able to help educate new comers without chasing them away or irritating regulars that have something to offer.

[Moontanman]

I found a few references stating that all mussels are protected in WV. Here is an example (in the introduction): http://www.wvdnr.gov... March 2014.pdf

Thank you

[Matt DeLaVega]

I don't see how NANFA or the forum is culpable in such a mistake. I believe it's important that dialog be allowed concerning such a mistake in order to correct it and help other prevent it.

I get what you mean and I will have to put some thought into it, though I am certainly not the only one who worries about this, nor do I make the final decision.

Generally I think that "outsiders"(non forum members who stop by and read our content) can get a feeling that NANFA is this forum. These outsiders do include wildlife officials. That is a fact, not speculation. If they do not take the time to read the content in depth, and the first thing they see is a post by a brand new member asking how to keep these 6 inch wide freshwater clams he just found, it may make a bad impression. The wildlife official has no clue that this person has no clue, and instantly gets a bad taste in his/her mouth. As far as he knows from his short time browsing is that this is par for the course. I may be wrong but that is how I see it. Therefore I prefer to to take the conservative approach and would hope we can limit this type of discussion.

[Michael Wolfe]

I think you explained that well, Matt.

This unfortunately means that we do have to start off by correcting some folks. And that may not be received well. But I think we still have the responsibility to correct and inform people.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Thanks Michael. Seems like a lot of people are having to translate "Mattspeak" lately. Maybe I had a mini stroke, and cannot come through clearly? Maybe I never have?

[gzeiger]

I don't think I've ever seen that kind of post go more than about ten minutes without correction, which I would think gives a good impression.

[Matt DeLaVega]

I don't think I've ever seen that kind of post go more than about ten minutes without correction, which I would think gives a good impression.

I agree. That is kind of how I mentioned above, if you notice someone crossing the line, speak up, as nice as you can of course. This hobby is all of ours. Breaking laws, especially in the internet age will only hurt it.
This forum has had its ups and downs but it has evolved to where the moderators are not busting their butts all the time because everyone is helping a bit. Members are helping to get newer people in the swing. It is great.

Just look at Tennessee. No fish allowed to be collected at all. They probably would not have implemented that law if their was not a growing number of us. They took the easy way out. They figured that their wildlife officers could not tell a snail darter from a raven, and banned it all. We need to tread softly.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Michael, I am so sorry that I steered your topic so far off. Though there has ben some good conversation here, so if you do not mind, I will let it run its course.

[mikez]

I get what you mean and I will have to put some thought into it, though I am certainly not the only one who worries about this, nor do I make the final decision.

Generally I think that "outsiders"(non forum members who stop by and read our content) can get a feeling that NANFA is this forum. These outsiders do include wildlife officials. That is a fact, not speculation.

I've been away so hope you'll tolerate one more response and I'll drop it....

I totally agree about visits from wildlife official, I know it's true having seen it up close in other topical forums. In fact, it's fear of such visits that has turned decent forums into boring places where little new information is shared and little to no outreach extends to newcomers. Maybe even chases away some that would otherwise contribute worthwhile content.

Some of those visitors might just benefit from the information and point of view available here. Wouldn't want to squash that.

[Moontanman]

Green water gone, all it took was the addition of about a gallon of azzola but now the canna snails are eating the azzola, it seems to be a draw so far but we will have to see how it unfolds...

[Moontanman]

Another twist on the asian clams, after they died/were eaten they just lay scattered about on the bottom. Two days ago suddenly almost all of them are in a pile. I just saw a male pick another one up and put it in the pile, he is all tubed up and a female of his species is hanging around the pile of shells. Meanwhile the chub that is tubed up runs the other fish which are similar but not of the same species away.... could this be love! 

[Moontanman]

A sad update on the clams, I did something very stupid, I mixed up buckets and poured a five gallon bucket with a bleach solution into the aquarium meaning to pour rain water into the tank, everything went belly up almost immediately. Stupid move on my part, I got careless and mixed up two buckets. I am shamed by this mistake but possibly others can take away the importance of labeling buckets. 

 

Another odd thing that happened, the chubs had been piling up dead clam shells by the dozens and I had assumed there were no live clams in the tank. Sadly live clams started popping up out of the sand all over the tank when the clorox solution hit, there were dozens of them, I tried to save them by transferring them to an an outdoor pond but I doubt many of them survived. 

 

Two canna snails in the tank were rescued and now almost two weeks later they are finally starting to crawl around a bit. 

 

Label buckets guys, all I can say..