44 replies to this topic

[Riffledace]

So here's something I found kind of interesting- in a swampy area within walking distance from my house, there are a few deeper pools that support fish. No bass, bluegills, or perch, just shiners, bullheads, pickerel, banded sunfish and of course lots of pumpkinseeds. But the thing about these pumpkinseeds is that I've never seen one over 3 inches. They have much brighter colors than pumpkins of the same size captured in lakes with normal sized fish, and in summer I actually see hundreds of 1-2 inch fish building, defending and spawning in little nests, four inches across, that hug the shore in less than an inch of water. Does anyone here have an experience or explanation for tiny sunfish in small, crowded ponds? I don't have any pictures now but once they start spawning I'll have to photograph the dinky nests.

Edited by Riffledace, 24 December 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[butch]

Are you sure they're pumpkinseeds?

[Riffledace]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

[Riffledace]

Oh, and another thing is that many of them lack the vertical bars you normally see on Lepomis that small.

[Evan P]

I have a similar occurrence here, but with Gren Sunfish instead. Most never get larger than an inch or two, but have full coloration and seem to display to one another.

[Riffledace]

They would probably be good for someone who wants to breed sunfish but doesn't have a huge tank, assuming they keep their size in captivity.

[Michael Wolfe]

They would not... they would eat and grow and eat and grow, etc.

[smbass]

Yes I have seen this same thing with pumpkinseeds in a lake that was too acidic due to some mining for most species to survive, but pumpkinseeds are one durable fish. They are found further north than any other sunfish and I have also captured them in lakes in Canada where the water was rather acidic and no other cencharchids were present. In the old strip mine pond in Ohio they were extremely abundant and the only other fish present were some bullheads. They were tiny and spawning on tiny nests all over the pond. I too agree with Michael if you remove them from that environment that made them that way they will grow and be a normal size.

[Riffledace]

Yes... The pond is very acidic. Most of it just contains banded sunfish and amphibians, and the snails have brittle shells.

[centrarchid]

I have seen the same in Northern Bluegill and Greensunfish. Both can spawn at under 2". Common demonimator has simply been no larger fish in population. Western Dollars and Redspotted Sunfish also appear capable of same, at least in tank settings.

Show a picture of the fish to rule our other species.

[Riffledace]

I will once they aren't buried under several inches of ice... Actually, since they are in such shallow water, it would probably even be pretty easy to take video footage of them fighting and spawning and stuff.

[Riffledace]

The only large predators in the pond are chain pickerel, so that define tally makes sense. I guess nobody deemed it worthy of stocking by bluegills and LMB. It's actually just one particularly deep pool that houses fish, the rest is just too shallow, muddy and acidic. Spotted salamanders and spring peepers actually breed there, even though the same waters contain fish.

[centrarchid]

I will once they aren't buried under several inches of ice... Actually, since they are in such shallow water, it would probably even be pretty easy to take video footage of them fighting and spawning and stuff.

That would be very cool. I hope to do same with Orangespotted Sunfish in the next couple of years.

[Sean Phillips]

Same thing with me. Local lake is overstocked with gills, pseeds, and greens. The bluegills and pseeds only get 3-6" and the greens only average 1-5".

[Matt DeLaVega]

I see it in culverts around here. 2 inch adult spawning green sunfish. Only other fish are bullheads, usually black, and creek chubs. I am not certain that the bullheads are spawning there or coming in from overflow. I see no reason why they would nor spawn there, but I have never seen schools of juveniles.

[butch]

There's a trout lake full of green sunfish that gets up to 2". Extremely stunted and look strange to me. Big eyes but thin body.

[centrarchid]

Big eyes means stunted owing to nutritional limitation. Those fish likely are old. They can also breed small and young but not reach another breeding season. I can close life-cycle of Bluegill, Greensunfish and Redspotted Sunfish in just over 90 days without actually stunting fish even though they are breeding at less than 2". In latter setup they can keep on growing even after reproduction begins. When stunted nutritionally growth can resume but I am not sure it goes at same rate. With Bluegill it seems to but genetics not controlled for.

[butch]

Oddly that stunted population never dies and I'm surprised that they have enough nutrition for spawning and egg production to keeps the population going on.

[centrarchid]

Some sunfishes have the ability to shunt resources from growth all to reproduction. Reproduction usually depressed although.

[Riffledace]

They do sort of have small bodies with big eyes. It would seem strange if they are really malnourished, though, because the pond has much greater population density of invertebrates than most in the area and the other fish species seem pretty big and well fed... there are huge schools of 10" golden shiners everywhere.