23 replies to this topic

[Cu455]

I started a thread about keeping NY natives in the aquarium. Several people mentioned that it is illegal to keep them as pets. I have seen natives sold at pet shops, fish markets and bait stores. I also spoke with the DEC a few years ago and today about this topic. Both times I was told as long as it was taken in a legal manner and is of size it will be fine to keep. I came across a thread where someone stated that it isn't DEC regulations but with state penal code. I was looking for laws that pertain to fish collecting and this is what I came up with.

 

The definition of wildlife exempts fish. The definition of wild animals is limited everything on the list, which fish is not.

 

 

T

 

 

One item which was brought up is the possession of native species. The first part of the law speaks about native wildlife, which by definition does not include fish. The last few sentences mention native fish. It says that the DEC can determine that the possession of native fish can be threat to the state of New York. The DEC determined certain bait fish being a threat to the environment, but not all fish native to New York.

 

 

This part talks about wild animals again, which fish are not.

 

Here is NYS definition of fishing. It says the taking, killing, netting, capturing OR withdrawal of fish from the water. I don't see anything saying that the fish must be dead.

 

http://s967.photobuc...html?sort=3&o=1

Edited by Cu455, 01 April 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Matt DeLaVega]

I hope you are right. This would be great news for others in New York.

 

I would like to hear why people have been certain that it is a no go in New York as well. Maybe some thing that you are missing, or vice versa.

[mikez]

Try specifically searching the fishing regs. Ma has similar wording regarding wildlife but then when you dig into the fishing regs, you find out you are not allowed to TRANSPORT live fish with the exception of a short list of bait species.

 

The key is not in the keeping, but in moving them from place to place. Logically, you can't "keep" them if you can't legally remove them and bring them home.

[Cu455]

I will also like to hear what others have to say too. The fishing regulations just say you can't possess a fish which is out of season. There are many fish that are open year round. I will look more into the transportation regulations later. I don't think the spirit of the law intends you pet becoming illegal at a certain date if you got possession of it when it was legal.There is nothing that says you have to kill the fish.

The more I read the laws the more I think that they were written to exclude fish. There was a lawsuit a few years ago dealing with saltwater fishing in NY. I forgot what it was about, i will find it later.



Here is the state statute about transporting wild game and wildlife. I need to check the definition of wild game but wildlife excludes fish. It doesn't mention anything about transporting live animals until section g, which doesn't mention fish.

[mikez]

Check this out. Transportation seems to be illegal just like Ma.

http://www.dec.ny.go...door/47282.html

[don212]

Check this out. Transportation seems to be illegal just like Ma.

http://www.dec.ny.go...door/47282.html

the fishing regs have this long and complicated rule about transporting baitfish not purchased from a licensed dealer. basically you can't transport outside the drainage area captured in. NY makes their regs so complicated even dec officers get confused.

[mikez]

Agree, they're confusing.

What jumps out at me is the wording: "...may only be used in the same water body from which they were caught...". I wouldn't interpret that as "drainage". To me, that means you can't put 'em in a bucket and drive away, as in taking them home for your tank.

[don212]

i remember seeing maps and descriptions in the fishing reg , joking with my dad from ny, how is the ranger supposed to tell where you got your fish, there is actually more in the book about bait than fishing, so glad i moved to fl

[Aquastudent]

These laws are rather complicated...

 

I'm glad I'm not a ranger (or lawyer) and have to interpret this

[don212]

if they can do this to fishing, what would building say a nuclear reactor be like

[Aquastudent]

if they can do this to fishing, what would building say a nuclear reactor be like

 

I know. I'm a fan of nuclear technology too...I wish we had the infrastructure to handle Thorium technology. That alone could aleiviate so much of our energy crisis!

[don212]

sarcastic comedy, just that ny likes to make things difficult

[Cu455]

Is there a list of what fish are considered native to NY? Apparently lots of fish that are common in NY are not considered native such as channel cats.

[Cu455]

I found an atlas of fish section on the DEC website, while looking for a list of native fish. I found out some intresting stuff about what I thought was native in NY. It appears that many fish which are common to NY are not concidered indigenous to NY. I still haven't found where it says it is illegal to keep NY native fish in NY. If that is the law I don't think it will be a problem to keep these fish since they are not native to NY.

 

 

http://www.dec.ny.go...mals/84622.html

 

Bluegills: The map shows they are not present in the watersheds they are not indigenous to.

 

Bluegill lives in lakes and in some larger rivers with submerged aquatic vegetation. It is non-native in all nine Atlantic slope watersheds plus two more of the Adirondacks region, and introductions to lakes farther north at higher elevations continue.

http://www.dec.ny.go...mals/94652.html

 

Green Sunfish: Not indigenous

 

Green Sunfish lives in streams and lakes and spawns in gravel areas. It has expanded its range rapidly in the last 20 years and is considered to be non-native throughout NY. There are records for all watersheds except Champlain and Upper Hudson. There are few records for all areas to the north, northeast and southwest.

http://www.dec.ny.go...mals/94658.html

 

Pumpkinseed: I am not sure what this means.

 

Pumpkinseed inhabits lakes and streams with submerged aquatic vegetation, and it is known in all 18 watersheds. It has been introduced to many upland ponds of the Adirondacks but documentation of its non-native status is generally lacking.

 

Brown trout: Not indigenous

 

Brown Trout inhabits lakes, streams and rivers with cold water and it spawns in tributaries with clean gravel. It has been introduced to every watershed and annual stocking continues in many areas. In many streams it has displaced native brook trout.

Edited by Cu455, 22 April 2015 - 10:07 AM.

[keepnatives]

I found an atlas of fish section on the DEC website, while looking for a list of native fish. I found out some intresting stuff about what I thought was native in NY. It appears that many fish which are common to NY are not concidered indigenous to NY. I still haven't found where it says it is illegal to keep NY native fish in NY. If that is the law I don't think it will be a problem to keep these fish since they are not native to NY.

 

 

 

 

Notice the words I made bold in the section labeled Collection, Use and Transportation of Personally Harvested Baitfish.  This phrase specifies the only personal use allowed is "hook and line fishing.  Also this doesn't just apply to native to NY fish but to any of the minnows, killifish, mudminnows, darters, sticklebacks, stonecats, smelt alewives and suckers you might collect in NY:

 

Collection, Use and Transportation of Personally Harvested Baitfish

(Any person who has a fishing license¹ or is entitled to fish without a license may collect² minnows (except carp and goldfish), killifish, mudminnows, darters, sticklebacks, stonecats, smelt, alewives and suckers for personal use in hook and line fishing only (sale prohibited) by angling and with the gear types listed below. All other species must be immediately returned to the water. See special regulations for personally harvesting alewife and blueback herring in the Hudson River.

Baitfish or other legally taken fish species intended to be used as bait may only be used in the same water body from which they were caught for bait in hook-and-line fishing. These fish may only be used in a water body where it is legal to use fish as bait. Transportation of personally harvested baitfish overland by a motorized vehicle is prohibited except within a designated overland transportation corridor. See dip net exceptions for smelt, suckers, alewives and blueback herring taken for human consumption.)

In addition transportation is limited so much you'd be hard pressed to find a useful loophole there which still doesn't overcome the only personal use allowed being hook and line fishing.  I'll have to look up the environmental law prohibiting keeping native fish. 

 

Regarding the specific species examples, keep in mind those native to a small area of NY would still be prohibited despite being introduced in other or even a majority of areas. 

[Cu455]

I am not sure about bait fish, I am more intrested in game fish. The website says fish are not native to New York. Green sunfish for example says "it is considered to be non-native through out New York." They are pretty specific in their description, it doesn't say non-native is to specific watersheds or use a limiting words such as most of New York . Do you know of a specific list of NY native fish? I was surprised channel cats are not considered a native species to New York. If channel cats are everywhere in NY and not considered native I am sure their are other common fish that aren't native as well.

[Cu455]

Notice the words I made bold in the section labeled Collection, Use and Transportation of Personally Harvested Baitfish.  

Those regulations are for personally harvested baitfish. If you buy them from baitfish these regulations don't apply. The statue states that you can't transport it by motorized vechile you can walk with it and grow them out in your tank for hook and line fishing at a later date. That might be a loop hole. Once it's in your tank it will be hard to prove that you didn't get it from a certified place.

[don212]

as i said ridiculously complicated, another reason to be out of ny

[Aquastudent]

as i said ridiculously complicated, another reason to be out of ny

The taxes and bad weather aren't enough?

[Cu455]

I like the weather in NY. We have great winters for snowboarding, spring for kayaking and summers for diving. Taxes, laws, regulations and excessive costs, such as $15 to drive over a bridge which hundreds of thousands of cars travel over day.

 

The NY Department of Environmental Conservation is the exception, at least from my view. The majority of the budget comes from the licensing fees. Which they constantly have to fight to keep or else it will get thrown into the general budget and disappear like all the other money the government collects. The money is used to stock lakes, purchase land and maintain a environment which  people can enjoy. I have a lifetime hunting and fishing pass and do neither, the money from that goes to land which I enjoyed to shoot on when I lived upstate.

 

I can go one complaining about NY legal system, education system, public transportation system and so on. Other then the DEC regulations on aquarium fish I have nothing to bad to say about them.

 

I am going to start a new thread with a update so it doesn't get buried here and go unnoticed.