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Urgent help needed- warmouth can't eat


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#1 Betta132

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  • San Gabriel drainage area

Posted 14 January 2016 - 12:21 AM

Background is here: Sunfish not eating- is this an emergency yet? | MonsterFishKeepers.com
But basically, I have a warmouth sunfish that hasn't eaten anything substantial since October. He has eaten one bloodworm, maybe one krill off the surface, and maybe one krill that I shoved down his throat. After the bloodworm, he had a bit of white stringy poo, so I treated with PraziPro. 
He is very skinny (he's lost nearly half his mass), he can barely keep himself upright, and he's very inactive. He spends all day under his log. 
Today I finally caught him again and very carefully checked out his throat. Nothing visibly wrong, and I could see all the way down his throat, so I would have seen anything like fungus. Thing is, I put a small bit of shrimp all the way down his throat, up against whatever you call the 'door' over the stomach. It's been almost 10 minutes, and he hasn't swallowed it. His tongue and mouth work enough for him to spit things out, but his throat doesn't seem to work, and apparently his stomach can't open up. Which explains why he won't eat. 
He hasn't given up, though. He moves now and then, sometimes floats up to stare around at the room, and he occasionally makes a rush at the longear. He's trying to live, he just isn't eating, and he isn't even trying to eat. He's trying to live, he just can't. 

I've just done a big water change and am treating with another round of PraziPro. The warmouth is currently in a small tank, and I'm going to put him into a net that I've hung in the tank like a very large fry net. He'll have space to move and places to hide, but he'll be in the medicated tank and within easy reach. 

So here are my questions: 
What would cause his stomach door to not work? 
Could this still be just parasites, or is there something else? 
And, most importantly, is there any hope? I have some clove oil, so I can put him to sleep if there's nothing I can do, but he's the most personable fish I've ever kept and he's still trying to live and I'm not sure I can kill a fish that's still trying to live. He doesn't seem to be in pain, but he's plainly in bad shape, and he hasn't eaten in something approaching three months. 
Is he just doomed to starve? 

I still have him contained. Is there anything I can do right now? Any way at all I could possibly get his stomach opened up? Anything I can do, theoretically? His mouth opens to about the size of a nickel, so I can see fairly well down his throat. Also, I can hold him easily enough, and I've of course kept him in the water for everything. I just really don't want to handle him and traumatize him even more if I can avoid it.
 
 
 


#2 mattknepley

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 05:09 AM

That's a sad and frustrating one. I've had a couple fish do this, too. I don't know if it's an age thing, or an illness, or what. I can't offer a cure, but can offer sympathy. I'm with you, I'd have a hard time putting down a fish that looked like it still wanted to live.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#3 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:35 AM

Is he in a tank by himself now? And is it low light or even just room light? He might just be too intimidated to eat. If you can fulfill the first two conditions then the third would be go with food he cannot resist. Half an earthworm.

If that doesn't get him going then I am not sure what else to try.
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#4 Sean Phillips

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 10:01 AM

Like Michael said, it may be the lighting. My green sunfish is exactly like this, if I even put on a small good light that's been darkened with egg crate she'll just sit under her log and not move an inch in 8 hours for anything, including food. Which is why I keep her now with no light except that from the room and she's always out either fighting with her reflection in the glass or looking for food (don't know why she decided to only eat frozen/live within the last couple months after eating flake as well forever but that's another story).
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#5 gerald

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 02:24 PM

This sounds more like a disease issue than a lighting issue, especially if he was acting and eating well a few months ago.  Whether it's from parasites, protozoa, bacteria, virus, tumor, organ failure, etc you'll probably never know without a veterinary exam.  Forcing food into his stomach probably won't help, and he may not be able to digest it.  If this has gone on since Oct with no improvement, I'd euthanize him.


Gerald Pottern
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Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#6 centrarchid

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 06:16 PM

I euthanize such fish as well.  When trying feed them back I my suggestion is a small live prey item like guppies that have been well fed prior to being put in with Warmouth. Introduce one at a time.  If first consumed then allow a couple hours before adding another.  Capturing prey can be exhuasting.  Feeding back up can be difficult in digestive system has been shut down for a protracted length of time.  The fish will have to mobilize resources from other parts of  body to ramp gut and intestinal tract back up.  A fish in poor condition will have difficulty with that.  Once you get fish back into feeding mode do not stop until you see some obvious improvement in condition.  If fish cannot muster enough effort to catch prey item then consider introducing directly to the Warmouth's stomach some pulverized fish mixed with a quality flake food using a syringe.  Flake food will get some badly needed vitamins in. 


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#7 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 06:20 PM

I am with Gerald here. I would have probably ended it a while ago myself. In the wild that slow weak fish would have likely been snapped up, digested and defecated by a predator at this point. How emaciated does he look? Photo? We have raised livestock(chickens,sheep,goats,cattle,quail,duck, and fish) in one way shape or form for 30 years. I have learned when to call it quits. There is no fun in any of it, but fish are much easier on the heart to euthanize than mammals. If it makes you feel better, set a date. Try everything you can. If upon that date, nothing has helped, realize that you have probably done more than anyone else would have, and use your clove oil. With all of my years of raising livestock, hundreds of calves born, hundred or so of each sheep and goats, and well over 10,000 chickens and an unknown number of fish in my care, sometimes it is just beyond you. You cannot fix it. A veterinarian cannot fix it either. So sometimes you need to put them down or let nature take it's course. I got to a point in my late teens that I felt comfortable drawing the line and euthanizing as needed. I still dislike it to this day, and so do my sons, but often it seems the most responsible thing to do. Good luck. I know how much it sucks, and it will never be easy.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#8 Betta132

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:17 PM

Here he is compared to a healthy warmouth's body shape: 

This%20is%20bad._zps4g24nohm.png

 

He was eating just fine for half a year before that, so it's not the light scaring him. Used to be that I could point a flashlight at him and he'd just back up a few inches and sit there still waiting for food.

 

It's been suggested that I get a soft-tipped pipette and squirt food directly into his stomach. I'll have some pipettes here Saturday, and I'm going to try a Cyclop-Eeze slurry, since it's really nutritious. Also, in about 10 minutes I'm going to the LFS to get a dozen or so ghost shrimp. I'll stuff them full of good food and then try to give him one, maybe held by its tailfin so it can't get away from him. If he doesn't eat the live food by Saturday, I'll try the Cyclop-Eeze. 
If he hasn't eaten or improved by a week from today, I'll euthanize him. He's declining a lot faster, probably because he's exhausted the bits of himself that he can semi-safely lose, and I'm really not sure he can make it a week if he doesn't eat. I'd have euthanized him before now, but he hasn't seemed like he's in pain or has lost the will to live. I've seen him uncomfortable (bacterial infection), and he's very clear about it when he feels bad.


Edited by Betta132, 14 January 2016 - 09:16 PM.


#9 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:54 PM

Yeah, I would give it up. Just my opinion.


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#10 Betta132

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 10:47 PM

I've gotten some ghost shrimp and some crickets. There are three gut-loaded ghost shrimp crawling around in his isolation net, and I'm going to try the crickets when I see him come out. Maybe their flailing will get his attention. 

The thing that really hurts is he's still looking around. If I do something that he sees as interesting, he watches- and it's not that he just happens to be facing that way, he's turning to look and plainly being curious. I had a clown goby that did this and eventually had to be put down because it was mostly dead, but after awhile it just kinda sat and never did anything. 

 

EDIT: 

IT WORKED! 

I saw him creeping towards a ghost shrimp but failing to get at it (it saw him and shot away), so I just added all the other shrimp, which brought the total up to 12. Yes, I know you don't want to crowd a stressed fish with too many feeders, but there's plenty of space and the ghosts are mostly either hiding in crannies or sitting very still and trying to not be seen. 

So far, I've seen him eat two. I don't know if he's eaten more or not, I left him alone for a couple of minutes while I went to tell my mom that he was eating. He's definitely not hungry right now (one just bounced off his face and he ignored it), but he's showing a bit more energy. And, the second he realized that there were ghost shrimp scooting around, his fins shot out like at mealtime and he immediately focused on them. He spent a minute trying to do what he usually does on a full stomach, which is hide under his cave, then eventually gave up when he realized that he couldn't get in there with the net in the way. He's now wandering around very closely inspecting the net- apparently he's curious and wants to find out where he is. 

 

So, my new (and much more positive questions): 

Is it OK for him to just have ghost shrimp constantly available until he stops looking like he's about to die of starvation? He's always stopped eating when his stomach is full, so he's not about to bust his gut open on food, but is it bad for him to be constantly eating? 

How big a container do I need to store live ghosts, say 50ish at a time? 

What should I gutload the ghosts with? I have two kinds of prepared food, mysis shrimp, frozen silversides, Cyclop-Eeze, and table shrimp on hand. I'm guessing Cyclop-Eeze and mysis? 

Assuming they're gutloaded with good food, are ghost shrimp a good staple for now? I'll offer frozen now and then, but I am absolutely not going to try to wean him onto frozen until he's in better shape. 


Edited by Betta132, 14 January 2016 - 10:56 PM.


#11 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 11:39 PM

Sounds good. Glad you stuck with it.  I don't think you want him to overwork his atrophied digestive tract. Might cause a blockage, or something else related. Shrimp pellets are high protein and would probably be fine for gut loading. Shrimp holding eggs if you get any, would probably be of higher food value. Good luck!


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#12 Betta132

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:51 AM

I don't really know how much to feed him, though, and I don't think I can give him just one or two at a time. They hide, and he can't see them all that well unless they move, so I probably have to keep more in there than he would eat at a time. I can't put him in a separate bare tank to eat because he won't eat for a few hours after being disturbed. It's also hard to tell how many shrimp are in the net, they're called ghost shrimp for a reason. I think I might try shortening the net a bit so the folds will vanish and the shrimp won't have as many places to hide, but I want to be sure he has enough cover to be comfortable. 

I just considered the idea of tying fishing line around the shrimp to keep them in midwater, but I don't think the line would stay on without just outright cutting them in half. I might try shortening the net and then hanging a plastic plant in midwater so that it's the only source of cover, thus forcing the shrimp to stay in an easily-reached spot. 

 

Short version of my rambling question up there: 

How much should I feed him at a time? He's a bit under 4" long, and he ate probably two or three shrimp. I'm assuming that's his current stomach capacity. The shrimp vary in size between 1" and .5", but most are about .75" and aren't particularly bulky.

The next batch might have larger ones, and anything under .5" won't go into there because they'd just escape the net. Granted, the others would eat them, but I don't want the others hanging around and staring at the net for food because I don't want to creep the warmouth out or make him waste his energy on chasing after the longear. 



#13 gerald

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:43 AM

Try some small earthworms too - the little red ones that you find in leaf piles seems to be most palatable.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#14 Sean Phillips

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 11:03 AM

Glad to hear he's eating! I'd keep giving live food until he looks like he's improving quite a bit, at which point switch over to frozen and dry as well (still with live in the mix). Ghost shrimp, redworms, frozen bloodworms, etc all sound like good options to me.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#15 Irate Mormon

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 07:45 PM

I would just make sure you have plenty of shrimp in the tank for him to munch on (20 or 30 shrimp don't place much burden on your filter) and try him on alternate live foods every so often.  The shrimp were a good call - almost everything that swims will eat them.  When he developes a hearty appetite then try pellets. 


-The member currently known as Irate Mormon


#16 Betta132

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 08:57 PM

I plan to get about 50 shrimp a batch. He's in a net and has something like the area of a 15g, maybe a tad more. I'm keeping him isolated so that the others can't get his food, and he's in the net because that way he has plenty of clean water instead of being in a 10g that would get dirtier a lot faster. 

He's never eaten pellets in his life. When he gets a better appetite, I'll try to get him back on frozen shrimp and krill, and I have some frozen silversides I think he'll like. Weaning him onto pellets would be ideal, but I'm not sure it's possible. 



#17 Irate Mormon

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 09:19 AM

Good job!  Hope it works out for both of you.


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#18 Fish Bones

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 11:12 AM

Im very impressed with your dedication to this fish, and its life.  Not many would have been so dedicated.  Bless you, and i thought you deserved a reward, so i got you this plaque.

 

lzsiW20.png?1



#19 Betta132

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 07:04 PM

Thank you! Honestly, some of that was dedication and some of it was just sheer stubbornness.

 

He's visibly feeling better- he has enough energy to be upset by the fact that he can't get into his cave to chase the longear out. He's also wearing a fairly normal color pattern as opposed to just a weak pattern of faded patches. I'm not sure how many ghost shrimp he's eaten yet, but I'm definitely going to have to put more in- they know he's there, so they're evading him. He doesn't seem to have quite enough energy to chase them down, so I think I'll improve his chances of having them wander by the spot where he's waiting for food. 



#20 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 07:10 PM

I would have ended it and called it a lost cause. I surely would not have had the patience you had.

 

 

And you got a plaque!


The member formerly known as Skipjack





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