33 replies to this topic

[smbass]

I'd say 4-5 of each giving you 12-15 small fish in a 20 gallon tank. Seems pretty reasonable stock. I bet if set up with plants and a stack of slate for crevices you might be able to collect eggs from the Reds and the topminnows and hatch them elsewhere. Darters probably require a wintering period so less likely to breed.

[thedood]

Thanks to all who have replied with the great info. Are any of the 3 species social or will they do fine on their own. How cold of a wintering period would the darters require? My house is old and I have a few rooms that get cold so I can easily put them through a wintering period. Will the other species tolerate a wintering period? What about heat. how well will these 3 species do if water temps reach 80 or so degrees. The heater controller unit I use has a cool side so I can easily setup some fans to run.

[smbass]

Red Shiners and Blackstripe Topminnows are both very adaptable species and I'm sure can handle 80 degrees down to just above freezing. Less familiar with Mud darters but you might get them in the mood with a low 50's upper 40's winter period of 2-3 months. You won't hurt the other two by doing this either but I don't think it is required to get them to spawn. The topminnows will spawn in vegetation and males do get territorial. Might work best as a male with his group of 2-3 girls in a 20 gallon tank. The red shiners get very active and males also somewhat territorial durring spawning but it is all show no real damage done to each other during this activity and more interesting to watch with multiple males. I would probably go 2-3 males and 2-3 females on them just for more activity to watch. Most darters less social and don't really school like the others may. My closest experience would probably be gulf darter a fairly similar species. These three fish really do fit together pretty well with a top, middle, and bottom dwelling species.

 

I recently spawned another Cyprinella shiner and need to get a post up on that. Watch for that when I get some time in the next week or so and it should give you details you could repeat with the red shiners. Reds are smaller sized fish than the species I'm currently working with so just scale down tank and breeding rock/tile sizes but most of the info should apply.

[BenCantrell]

I would recommend just one tadpole madtom.  If you do more than one, make sure they're juveniles when you collect them.  I tried to introduce a 2nd adult to a tank once, and they fought nonstop (biting each other, rolling around in a ball of angry madtom) until I separated them.

 

Brindled madtoms are more docile than tadpoles, and I've kept several together with no issues.  They're cooler looking too.

[smbass]

I also have had not so good experience with tadpole madtom actually eating some darters. So if your set on the mud darter the tadpole madtom is out... But brindleds probably fine. Have kept brindleds for years in with darters with no issue even when the brindled is far larger and presumably could eat the darters if it had a desire to do so.

[Michael Wolfe]

totally agree here with the whole 'what will a madtom eat' thing... margined madtoms are fish eaters (period, its just a matter of time/size)... my ozark madtom on the other hand, never ate any of the yoke darters that he lived with for years... even when he was much bigger than them.

 

Look at the mouth on some of these critters and you will begin to see some traits that will tell you who they will eat.  The mouth on the ozark was small, circular and all the whiskers almost seemed to point forward.  The mouth on a margins is wide and the whiskers point out to the sides. Things that make ya go hmmm.

[thedood]

I appreciate the info, seems I am getting an education here. I like this board and thus far the information is grade a and you folks are helpful and friendly and for that I am grateful so thanks!

 

I have looked and did not find what everyone is doing as far as acclimation and quarantine procedures. Any advice for qt med treatment? 

 

 

I had read about madtoms eating darters but added them to my possible list as they are a cool looking fish. I am really leaning toward the darters, red shiner, and blackstripe topminnows. I see brindled mad toms get 5" which is most likely to big for a 20H that I am planning on using so my next question is should I seek out another species to use as a cleanup crew? Will madtoms even make a decent clean up crew? Will I really even need one with this setup?

 

Feeding darters, red shiner, blackstripe topminnow. It seems they like insects, larvae, and small crustaceans so I would ask do they take to frozen food readily or should I plan on using live food? I dont have time to maintain a grindal worm culture so would store bought redworms transferred to a healthy bedding material work as food? Something good that will pre-load their gut for the fish when they consume. Surely I could buy a decent worm bedding reasonable. I also have a cherry shrimp tank that has freshwater scuds I can use to supplement their diet. For that matter I can supplement their diet with small shrimps on a limited basis but I mostly use those to feed my Calvus. I could even start a scud culture in their tank while they are in qt but it would not last long I am sure.

[Michael Wolfe]

• You don't "need" the madtom.
• You don't need a cleanup crew if you have live plants.
• They will all eat frozen, you don't really need live, but they will all love it (including cherry shrimp... yum).

[gzeiger]

The scud culture would last minutes at best. Frozen food is great for these guys. I supplement with live food when I can because it's fun to collect and they like it, but there's definitely no need.

 

I generally don't quarantine, but it is a good practice if you have the resources. Unless you're collecting fish from a compromised, high-stress habitat such as a stranded mud puddle, wild-caught fish rarely have an issue. This may vary by species, but I've been at this too long to chalk it up to luck. Purchased fish I would always recommend quarantine, as commercial handling and display is always high stress, high stocking density and exposure to pathogens from many different environments in conditions conducive to their spread.

 

I dearly love snails, whether or not they are needed for cleanup, but few species will survive the darters. I was in Illinois two summers ago and found a largish (3/4") species of trapdoor snail fairly abundant in the main branch of the Mississippi that was fairly hardy with the predators and interesting to watch. If you end up with some sort of rockscape rather than plants, crayfish are fun and effective if you have access to a smaller species.

[thedood]

Thanks gzeiger. Nice to know snails are on the menu. I have tons of ramshorn and bladder snails. Sounds like I should have no problem keeping these guys well fed. Also nice to know about general health of wild caught species. I tell ya I am chomping at the bit to get this tank setup and find some stock for it. Ive been doing a lot of research and the beauty of what we have locally is amazing.

[smbass]

The three fish you choose/are leaning toward should fit well together. Feed some cheap flake first to fill up the Red shiners as they will be the most active and least picky about food. Then feed some sort of frozen food in large enough quantity that enough makes it to the bottom for the Mud Darters, I prefer blood worms, mosquito larvae, and mysis shrimp. The Blackstripe Topminnows will eat some flake food but will also prefer the frozen. The darters are probably not going to eat the flake, sometimes you get some that pick at it but I have never seen darters feed well on flake food.

[keepnatives]

This will be a fun tank to watch for sure.  Another thing you might do is get some live black worms and using a turkey baster blow them right under the substrate as much as possible they will come up to surface and darters will find them.  Shiners will also eventually.

[gzeiger]

Big ramshorns can often survive long-term with darters, but the eggs will always get eaten. Probably not a major food source, but I'm sure it's nutritious.

[thedood]

I have been thinking and I am liking this idea enough that I may end up just keeping the 20h for qt and getting another 55 to setup for natives if I can find one for a good price. My wife is going to kill me lol.

 

smbass that is some good info to have thanks

 

keepnatives  I already have a turkey baster I use to feed thawed frozen food and the black worms is a great idea

 

gzeiger i keep snails in all my tanks so i have a steady supply of small snails I can use to give variety.