These things are so darn hard to id, Gerald I did what you said about taking pics of the lips.. Don't think its a Shorthead, but there is a slight red/orange lateral line down his side.
Thanks guys.
Tim
Carolina Redhorse?
Started by
taldridge0321
, Aug 02 2016 12:16 PM
24 replies to this topic
#8
Matt DeLaVega
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- Forum Staff
- Ohio
Posted 02 August 2016 - 01:46 PM
The member formerly known as Skipjack
#9
taldridge0321
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- NANFA Member
- Pigeon Watershed, North Carolina
Posted 02 August 2016 - 01:59 PM
Thanks Matt, hard to tell these Redhorse's apart haha. I have a guide book and it has pictures of the mouths of several Redhorses, hate to say it but it looks like a Shorthead which I have already caught ugh.
#10
gerald
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- Global Moderator
- Wake Forest, North Carolina
Posted 02 August 2016 - 02:09 PM
Hmmm... I don't think it's a Notchlip, V-lip, Shorthead, or Robust Redhorse, based on the plicate lips, rear lip shape, and relatively long head. That leaves Carolina Redhorse and Brassy Jumprock as possibilities. I dunno ... Maybe Fritz or others will chime in with opinions. Might need fin ray counts and number of scale rows around the caudal peduncle to verify ID. I'm relying on Fritz's SC book, since Menhinick's NC book doesnt include Carolina or "true" Robust. (The "Robust redhorse" ID in Menhinick is actually Brassy Jumprock). Looks like Olaf's Moxostoma website is missing some of the SE Atlantic drainage species.
Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel
#11
taldridge0321
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- NANFA Member
- Pigeon Watershed, North Carolina
Posted 02 August 2016 - 02:20 PM
Hmmm... I don't think it's a Notchlip, V-lip, Shorthead, or Robust Redhorse, based on the plicate lips, rear lip shape, and relatively long head. That leaves Carolina Redhorse and Brassy Jumprock as possibilities. I dunno ... Maybe Fritz or others will chime in with opinions. Might need fin ray counts and number of scale rows around the caudal peduncle to verify ID. I'm relying on Fritz's SC book, since Menhinick's NC book doesnt include Carolina or "true" Robust. (The "Robust redhorse" ID in Menhinick is actually Brassy Jumprock). Looks like Olaf's Moxostoma website is missing some of the SE Atlantic drainage species.
Gotcha, I don't think its a Brassy Jumprock since I have caught those before and the scales are much smaller. I am still thinking Shorthead but the head isn't really short. Hmmm. Yeah we definitely need some others to chime in.
#12
UncleWillie
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- NANFA Member
- Georgia
Posted 02 August 2016 - 03:39 PM
Hmmm... is how I feel, too, Gerald. Overall appearance honestly doesn't feel "jumprock-y" to me. That's not a very good descriptive reason, particularly because the lips looks like it's a possibility. Robustum can be ruled out. That head shape makes things tough. So like Gerald said, some meristic counts will do the trick, which may be tough given the condition of the scales and fins.
Willie P
#13
taldridge0321
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- NANFA Member
- Pigeon Watershed, North Carolina
Posted 02 August 2016 - 03:41 PM
Hmmm... is how I feel, too, Gerald. Overall appearance honestly doesn't feel "jumprock-y" to me. That's not a very good descriptive reason, particularly because the lips looks like it's a possibility. Robustum can be ruled out. That head shape makes things tough. So like Gerald said, some meristic counts will do the trick, which may be tough given the condition of the scales and fins.
Hmmm, yeah the scales are bigger than my previous Jumprocks, the head is bigger than a Shorthead. No idea guys. Any reasonable guesses perhaps?
#14
gerald
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- Global Moderator
- Wake Forest, North Carolina
Posted 02 August 2016 - 03:55 PM
The Carolina Redhorse is thought to be related to Golden Redhorse; so if it looks similar to a Golden, then Carolina is probably a good guess. I haven't seen enough Goldens myself (or Carolinas) to have a good gut-feel for them.
Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel
#15
UncleWillie
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- NANFA Member
- Georgia
Posted 02 August 2016 - 03:55 PM
Both the Carolina and Robust redhorse have protective status. Please familiarize yourself with these species.
http://www.ncwildlif...ted_species.pdf
Willie P
#16
Matt DeLaVega
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- Forum Staff
- Ohio
Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:07 AM
Cleaned this up a bit, so if you guys notice some missing content, don't be alarmed. After things were handled by the moderation team, I did my best cleaning this up without compromising the educational aspects of the thread.
The member formerly known as Skipjack
#17
taldridge0321
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- NANFA Member
- Pigeon Watershed, North Carolina
Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:57 AM
Hmmm... is how I feel, too, Gerald. Overall appearance honestly doesn't feel "jumprock-y" to me. That's not a very good descriptive reason, particularly because the lips looks like it's a possibility. Robustum can be ruled out. That head shape makes things tough. So like Gerald said, some meristic counts will do the trick, which may be tough given the condition of the scales and fins.
Uncle Willie, yeah the head shape isn't at all a Shorthead, which is what I would think this is normally, and the scales are too big for a Brassy Jumprock.
#18
taldridge0321
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- NANFA Member
- Pigeon Watershed, North Carolina
Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:59 AM
Both the Carolina and Robust redhorse have protective status. Please familiarize yourself with these species.
Understood, both of these species aren't in the range I caught this fish in as far as I know. Carolina Redhorse is further east by at least 50 miles and the Robust isn't in my range either. According to 2011 Peterson Field Guide and also what I found online. May be wrong though.
#19
gerald
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- Global Moderator
- Wake Forest, North Carolina
Posted 03 August 2016 - 10:00 AM
Is this fish from the Catawba or PeeDee watershed? Carolina and Robust are both in the PeeDee, but are not (yet) known to occur in the Catawba. Robust only occurs below Blewett Fall (in recent history) and Carolina extends upstream at least to Tillery Dam. They're usually in BIG streams, not little creeks (less than 25 ft wide) except maybe creek segments close to a big stream. Notchlip and Brassy are the usual Mox species I'd expect to find in smaller creeks in the Catawba and PeeDee basins.
Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel
#20
taldridge0321
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- NANFA Member
- Pigeon Watershed, North Carolina
Posted 03 August 2016 - 10:04 AM
Is this fish from the Catawba or PeeDee watershed? Carolina and Robust are both in the PeeDee, but are not (yet) known to occur in the Catawba. Robust only occurs below Blewett Fall (in recent history) and Carolina extends upstream at least to Tillery Dam. They're usually in BIG streams, not little creeks (less than 25 ft wide) except maybe creek segments close to a big stream. Notchlip and Brassy are the usual Mox species I'd expect to find in smaller creeks in the Catawba and PeeDee basins.
Well since its a creek in Waxhaw I would guess Catawba, def not Pee Dee which is where my parents live and may have caused some confusion. Waxhaw is kinda an interesting place, right outside Charlotte but almost in SC, kinda takes a map to get a feel for it. I know what you guys are saying about Brassy Jumprocks but I have pics of them about the same size as this fish and the two aren't the same species. This fish has bigger scales and from what I am learning from you guys on here, scale size is pretty important with Moxo's.
Tim
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