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usual minnow ID conundrums


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#1 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
  • NANFA Member
  • Long Island

Posted 05 November 2016 - 10:29 PM

tried some new fishing grounds today- Delaware River and Neversink River.  Didn't get a single bite on worms, the only action around were the usual confusing minnows.  Was hoping to avoid this situation but it was minnows or no action at all.  At one spot I saw a bunch of Darters but couldnt catch them. 

 

Any help much appreciated, dependent on Nanfian assistance with these, thanks in advance

 

 

1) hudsonius?

 

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2)

 

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3) 

 

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4)

 

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5)

 

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6)

 

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#2 mattknepley

mattknepley
  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 06 November 2016 - 07:12 AM

It's been a while since I've dined on humble pie, so I'll try a couple for you.

#1. Looks like a Cyprinella to me; I'd guess spiloptera but maybe analostana

#2. Pimephales notatus?

#3. Hybognathus regius

#4. Notemigonus crysoleucas

Won't even hazard guesses for #5 or 6...
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#3 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
  • NANFA Member
  • Long Island

Posted 06 November 2016 - 04:52 PM

It's been a while since I've dined on humble pie, so I'll try a couple for you.

#1. Looks like a Cyprinella to me; I'd guess spiloptera but maybe analostana

 

Def possible, the pigment at end of dorsal fin looks like Spotfin Shiner, but why all the pigmentation at the caudal base?  

#2. Pimephales notatus?

 

Looks possible but no spot on dorsal fin though

#3. Hybognathus regius

 

the distinctive features of regius seems real tough to ID, but seems like sstrong possibility 

#4. Notemigonus crysoleucas

 

This fish seemed significantly duller in color than other Golden Shiners , but you're prob right

Won't even hazard guesses for #5 or 6...

 

thanks Matt, wrote my thoughts under your IDs



#4 mattknepley

mattknepley
  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 06 November 2016 - 05:40 PM

Good points; here's what I was going on...

#1. Strong, muscular build; large, cross-hatched scales; coloration, dorsal markings; choosing to ignore extra color on caudal base.

#2. Length of snout, outlines of dorsal scales, eye/snout measurements, lack of any Hybopsis up there to call it.

#3. Body shape (especially head/snout), but mostly the silvery sheen and the dropped scales.

#4. Body/eye shape, coloration. "Golden" was not the best choice for this fish's name...
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#5 strat guy

strat guy
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  • Orland Park, IL

Posted 06 November 2016 - 08:17 PM

1) I agree, spotfin shiner. I have like 25 of them in my tank at home, from 3/4" to 4", and it seems that pigmentation is normal with the smaller ones. The larger ones have it to a smaller degree, but my smaller ones all exhibit that really strongly.

2) I thought this was a bluntnose as well, but with the dot lacking, I think it's a blackchin shiner. They look almost the same, but the latter lacks the spot. IMO, #5 is the same thing.

120 low tech native planted - Blackstriped Topminnow, Central Stoneroller, Fathead minnow, Golden Shiner, Black chin shiner, Carmine Shiner, Emerald Shiner, Sand Shiner, Spotfin Shiner, Orangethroat darter, Johnny Darter, and Banded Darter.


#6 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
  • NANFA Member
  • Long Island

Posted 06 November 2016 - 10:42 PM

Matt/Strat- thanks for Spotfin info, I agree it's either Spotfin or Satinfin.  Apparently these fish look almost exactly the same.  It actually looks like Satinfin is more common than Spotfin in this area

 

 

I checked the fish atlas page for Blackchin Shiner on NY DEC website and it's not in the Delaware system, but I now have a new strong possibility for #2 and possibly #5: Notropis procne, the Swallowtail



#7 gerald

gerald
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  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 07 November 2016 - 08:54 AM

#2:  Note the short 1st ray in dorsal, haldf as long as the 2nd ray -- that's a Pimephales characteristic.  Notropis, "Hybopsis" and similar minnows have a long 1st ray, about the same length as 2nd ray.  Or, it could be a swallowtail wih a damaged 1st ray.  It does look a lot like a swallowtail.  The snout/mouth area is not clear enough to see detail.

 

#3 and 5:  young Fallfish maybe?

 

#6: common shiner?


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#8 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
  • NANFA Member
  • Long Island

Posted 07 November 2016 - 09:52 AM

#2:  Note the short 1st ray in dorsal, haldf as long as the 2nd ray -- that's a Pimephales characteristic.  Notropis, "Hybopsis" and similar minnows have a long 1st ray, about the same length as 2nd ray.  Or, it could be a swallowtail wih a damaged 1st ray.  It does look a lot like a swallowtail.  The snout/mouth area is not clear enough to see detail.

 

#3 and 5:  young Fallfish maybe?

 

#6: common shiner?

 

jeez this is brutal lol these fish are impossible.  This is worse than the juvenile Mojarras from Florida.   I caught more species than pictured here, maybe 5-7 different species on this trip, and I don't think I can definitively state the identity of any of them..  

 

 

So #2 has no mark on dorsal seemingly ruling out Bluntnose Minnow, however it has shorter 1st dorsal ray seemingly ruling out Swallowtail.  No bueno

 

 

#3 and #5 - did not expect young fallfish as possibility, but I think you might be right, at least for #5.  I really don't think #3 is Fallfish , the lateral band should be more pronounced at that size no?

 

 

Gerald- For #1, would you go with Satinfin or Spotfin?  Are you able to count the anal rays zooming in on that fish?  



#9 gerald

gerald
  • Global Moderator
  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 07 November 2016 - 11:47 AM

Fallfish: #3 and 5 look nearly the same, except for the lateral stripe pigment which comes and goes.  Big eye, blunt snout, small scales.  What other chub-like minnow is possible there?

 

Cyprinella :  At least 8 anal rays, maybe 9 - cant see the rear-most ones clearly .  Does that help with satinfin vs spotfin distinction?

 

#2:  I'm thinkin swallowtail shiner now.  Bluntnose should have a lower, rounder, long-based dorsal fin, rather than tall and pointed like this guy.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#10 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
  • NANFA Member
  • Long Island

Posted 07 November 2016 - 12:49 PM

Fallfish: #3 and 5 look nearly the same, except for the lateral stripe pigment which comes and goes.  Big eye, blunt snout, small scales.  What other chub-like minnow is possible there?

 

Cyprinella :  At least 8 anal rays, maybe 9 - cant see the rear-most ones clearly .  Does that help with satinfin vs spotfin distinction?

 

#2:  I'm thinkin swallowtail shiner now.  Bluntnose should have a lower, rounder, long-based dorsal fin, rather than tall and pointed like this guy.

 

 

 

Glad to see you aboard the Swallowtail train, good point about the tall dorsal.  The 1st dorsal ray is still a problem but I think there's enough there to declare this fish a Swallowtail at this point

 

 

For #3/#5- If you're pretty sure it's a Chub, not a minnow/shiner, then it appears only Creek Chubs and Fallfish are around that area

 

 

Regarding the Satinfin/Spotfin- I read this actually from a NANFA article, the 1st sentence says it all, virtually indistinguishable while alive.  However, Satinfin has 9 anal rays, Spotfin has 8.  Also, the Satinfin often has more pigment all over the dorsal.  I'm leaning to declaring it a Spotfin

 

Satinfin Shiner (Notropis analostanus) and Spotfin Shiner (Notropis spilopterus)

Since these two species are said by ichthyologists to be virtually indistinguishable in the field while alive, they are treated together here. Vague methods of distinguishing will be suggested.

Both species are members of the subgenus Cyprinella. They have usual Cyprinella attributes; streamlined shape; great speed and swimming ability; prominent diamond-shaped scales. They can also be identified by feel: it's as though they were made of metal. Males of the two species have several things particularly in common during breeding season: whitish or yellowish fins, pearlescent bodies, and rough tubercles on the snout. Females axe similar to each other, lacking high color.

The anal-fin ray count differs--satinfin 9, spotfin 8. C.L. Smith in Inland Fishes of New York State says the spotfin has 37-39 lateral-line scales, the satinfin 35-37. The most definite distinction Smith asserts, which the authors have not yet tested, is that satinfins have pigment scattered throughout the dorsal-fin membranes, while in the spotfins it is confined to the black dashes between posterior dorsal rays.

The authors of this summary have their own method of telling the species apart--blind instinct. But between them they usually agree, so there might be something to their guesswork. First, a major habitat clue: adult spotfins are more likely to inhabit small creeks, such as Kelly Run, Lancaster County, Pa.; adult satinfins, large ones. The habitat distinction is not 100-percent, however. Second, we have found satinfins only in the eastern part of this area--adjacent to the Delaware drainage, where we have never found spotfins (though both species are said to be there, too).

 

Now their looks: First, It appears that most fresh-caught spotfins are slightly trimmer than satinfins, possibly because they sometimes occur in great density; after a while in aquaria, spotfins fatten and the distinction blurs. Second, one is more conscious of greenish overtones to the bodily iridescence of spotfins, yellowish with satinfins. Both may develop yellowish fins. Aside from looks, in aquaria one author (BG) has found satinfins (males) slightly more assertive than spotfins.



#11 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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  • Long Island

Posted 07 November 2016 - 08:13 PM

ok guys appreciate the assistance, I'm ready to close the book on this trip.  I have reached the 85% confidence interval on 3 relevant ID's here, just above the 84.7% threshold necessary to qualify for a positive fish ID.  

 

#1) Spotfin Shiner- Based on the Spotfin vs. Satinfin I pasted in the post above- This fish has pigment only on back end of dorsal fin, and I thought I noticed greenish overtones on the iridescence.  Going forward, if i catch one of these again it will need to have to pigment more scattered over the Dorsal to be considered a Satinfin

 

#2) Swallowtail Shiner

 

#5) juvenile Fallfish, not totally convinced #3 is Fallfish too but probably is.  

 

#6) Probably a Common Shiner but I documented it poorly

 

 

 

Bonus ID- The Darters I saw were definitely Shield Darters

 

Bonus Mammal- I had an intense stare down with a Mink

 
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#12 mattknepley

mattknepley
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Posted 08 November 2016 - 05:48 AM

Yay- you got your id's and I actually was close on one!

Love the bonus mammal!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#13 BenCantrell

BenCantrell
  • Moderator
  • San Diego, CA

Posted 08 November 2016 - 11:05 AM

Minks are up to something.  I had one keeping an eye on me last time I went fishing as well.

 

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#14 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
  • NANFA Member
  • Long Island

Posted 08 November 2016 - 02:01 PM

They are definitely not up to anything good Ben...Apparently Minks will attack anything regardless of size and will kill even when they aren't not hungry, I would go as far as classifying this as a near death experience.



#15 mattknepley

mattknepley
  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 08 November 2016 - 05:21 PM

You guys just run with the wrong mink crowd. The one I saw this summer was most nonconfrontational.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."




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