63 replies to this topic

[Moontanman]

I tried to chip some fish to one of out members yesterday and ran into a snag. They wouldn't let me ship the box Priority Mail, they insisted on overnight Express mail. I tried to talk with this about but he pulled out a rule book that showed live fish must be shipped over night. In this case it would have been $55 for the box. Has anyone else come up against this problem?

 

I we back this morning with the intention of discussing it some more but they took the box, no questions or hesitation.

 

Kind of weird for sure!    

[Dustin]

I did a quick search and see that others have had this problem too.  Did you happen to get the section that the employee was citing?  This is the only mention of live fish on the USPS site:

 

526.6 Small, Harmless, Cold–Blooded Animals

Small, harmless, cold–blooded animals, except for snakes, turtles, and turtle eggs, are mailable only when they meet certain requirements. For some examples, see Exhibit 526.6.

 

Exhibit 526.6 

Requirements for Mailing Small, Harmless, Cold–Blooded Animals (Except Snakes, Turtles, and Turtle Eggs)

 

General Requirements:

All animals in this group:

• Must be able to reach their destination in good condition in the normal transit time between the mailing and address points.
• Must not require any food, water, or attention during transport.
• Must not create sanitary problems.
• Must not create obnoxious odors.

Specific Requirements by Animal:

Baby Alligators

Baby Caimans

Chameleons

Frogs

Lizards

Newts

Reptiles and Amphibians

Salamanders

Tadpoles and Toads

• Animals must not exceed 20 inches in length.
• No additional requirements, except the applicable standards in section 52.
• Packaging must comply with 522.

Specific Requirements by Animal:

Goldfish

Tropical Fish

• Fish must be held in a securely sealed primary receptacle.
• Primary receptacle must be cushioned with sufficient absorbent material to take up all liquid in case of leakage.
• Primary receptacle and absorbent cushioning material must be sealed within waterproof outer (shipping) packaging.

Worms

Bloodworms

Hellgrammites

Leeches

Mealworms

Snails

• No additional requirements, except the applicable standards in section 52.
• Packaging must comply with 522.

Nonpoisonous Insects

• No additional requirements, except the applicable standards in section 52.
• Packaging must comply with 522.

[Moontanman]

No, he didn't let me see it, but they did take it this morning. Probably some guy who just didn't know what the requirements really were.. 

[Matt DeLaVega]

Or a stickler for detail.

[mattknepley]

I don't ever recall an "express shipping only" clause for fish. I vaguely recall looking through the regs the first time I shipped fish and had no qualms about sending them priority rather than express. Given my boss is a stickler for people paying the correct postage, and that he is a good boss, I'm sure if I should have paid express, then I would have paid express...

[Moontanman]

Well, they sent the box back to me, if this is the future of fish shipping then I have priced of the game... $55 to send a flat rate box that should have been $18.99 I guess shipping fish is a the thing of the past....

[Dustin]

They sent it back to you?  For what reason?  Did they cite a regulation this time?

[Moontanman]

They sent it back to you?  For what reason?  Did they cite a regulation this time?

 

 

Yes living animals, specifically life fish, must be shipped express mail. Priority mail cannot be used with live animals...   

[Dustin]

Alright Matt.  You are going to have to delve into the labyrinth that is your employer and let us know where this regulation is.  I cannot find it.  I can't believe they shipped the fish back to Moon instead of just forwarding them on after they had been accepted and paid for.

[mattknepley]

I

Yes living animals, specifically life fish, must be shipped express mail. Priority mail cannot be used with live animals...

Tell them you want the code, the actual code in the regulations. Not what they say it says; you want the code -every last initial, comma, section #, etc.- so you can look it up yourself on your terms.

If "express only" is legit, it is either very, very new; or is never enforced. Given the way my coworkers like to pick on me I am sure I would've heard something from one of them about a change in fish shipping regs.

Honestly, this smells "PETA-esque" to me; someone with their own agenda who probably knows jack squat about actually shipping animals deciding what is best for them. I could be very wrong, but that's been my first impression. The factthey were sent back is interesting, did your p.o. send it back, or did their processing and distribution facility (commonly called "the plant" around here.)
Quite possibly someone has their own interpretation of regs, or outdated ones, etc. Perhaps they have the "72 hour rule" for day old poultry (see next post) in their head as a catch-all reg for shipping animals.

Will look into this as I can. The ironic thing about working at the PO is that it often makes it very difficult to actually use the post office. Believe it or not, most of us are busy working!

[mattknepley]

Going through the U.S. Postal Service publications and code. Here are sections regarding shipping of live animals. Notice that in only a few instances does it indicate how the animals must be shipped; and none of those instances cite the actual speed of shipping (ie, express, priority, so on, so forth.) I will post the link to this, but links break so I will first post the whole dang section. From [USPS] Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail > 5 Perishable Matter > 52 Animals > 526 Mailable Live Animals. Fish are addressed in 526.6.
https://pe.usps.com/...08.htm#ep203593 The link is much easier to read.

526 Mailable Live Animals

526.1 General

Some animals are mailable under proper conditions. See the specific instructions as noted for the following kinds of animals:
Live bees, 526.2 and Exhibit 526.21.
Live, day–old poultry, 526.3 and Exhibit 526.33.
Live adult birds, 526.4.
Live scorpions (only under limited circumstances), 526.5 and Exhibit 526.5.
Other small, harmless, cold–blooded animals, 526.6 and Exhibit 526.6.
Note: Regarding dead animals or parts of animals, see 526.7 and Exhibit 526.7.
526.2 Live Bees

526.21 Mailability Requirements

Honeybees and queen honeybees are acceptable for shipping within the continental U.S. and must be free of disease, as required under federal and state regulations. The following additional conditions apply:
Honeybees. Honeybees are acceptable only via surface transportation, and must bear special handling fees, in addition to regular postage. Mailpieces must be plainly marked on the address side with “Live Bees” and “Surface Only” or “Surface Mail Only.”
Queen Honeybees.
Via air transportation. Only queen honey bees may be shipped via air transportation. Each queen honeybee shipped via air transportation may be accompanied by up to eight attendant honeybees.
Via surface transportation. Queen honeybees shipped via surface transportation must bear special handling fees, in addition to regular postage.
All mailpieces containing queen honeybees must be plainly marked on the address side with “Live Queen Bees.” Refer to Exhibit 526.21 for a general summary of the requirements for mailing live bees.

Exhibit 526.21
Requirements for Mailing Live Bees
Live Bees
Live BeesContents must be either queen honeybees or honeybees. Bees must be securely packaged (see 522) to provide adequate air and they must be kept within a tolerable temperature range at 40° to 100° F.
The use of insecticides must be eliminated in Postal Service areas that will be occupied by bee shipments.
Air Transportation
Surface Transportation
Only queen honeybees may be shipped by air transportation.
Each queen honeybee may be accompanied by up to eight attendant honeybees.
Alert personnel to ensure the queen honeybees’ timely and safe dispatch to, and arrival at, the destination.
Equipment must be available for transportation up to the 4th zone. Advance arrangements must be made for shipment to addresses beyond the 4th zone.
Any type of live honeybees may be shipped in the continental United States by surface transportation.
Packages of honeybees must include special handling service fees, in addition to regular postage.
Alert personnel to ensure the honeybees’ timely and safe dispatch to, and arrival at, the destination.
Equipment must be available for transportation up to the 4th zone. Advance arrangement must be made for shipment beyond the 4th zone.
526.22 Claims for Bee Shipments

Indemnity claims (see DMM 609) for damage, partial loss, and loss of insured shipments of mailable bees are accepted only in the following situations:
Death of the bees resulted from Postal Service handling after conditions for mailability were met and when there was strong likelihood that the shipment could have been safely transported.
Contents were lost because of damage to the container while in Postal Service custody.
The complete package was lost in the mail.
Special handling was purchased as required under 526.21.
526.3 Live, Day–Old Poultry

526.31 General

The following live, day–old animals are acceptable for mailing when properly packaged: chickens, ducks, emus, geese, guinea birds, partridges, pheasants (only during April through August), quail, and turkeys. All other types of live, day–old poultry are nonmailable. Day–old poultry vaccinated with Newcastle disease (live virus) also is nonmailable.
526.32 Mailability Requirements

The specific types of day-old poultry named in 526.31 are mailable subject to the following requirements:
Poultry that is not more than 24 hours old and is presented for mailing in the original, unopened hatchery box from the hatchery of origin.
The date and hour of hatching is noted on the box by a representative of the hatchery who has personal knowledge thereof. (For Collect on Delivery (COD) shipments made by a hatchery for the account of others, the name or initials and address of the hatchery or the Post Office box number and address of the hatchery must be prominently shown for this standard.)
Box is properly ventilated, of proper construction and strength to bear safe transport in the mail, and is not stacked more than 10 units high.
Day–old poultry is mailed early enough in the week to avoid receipt at the office of address (in case of missed connections) on a Sunday, a national holiday, or the afternoon before a Sunday or national holiday.
Day–old poultry can be delivered to the addressee within 72 hours of the time of hatching.
Day-old poultry sent via surface transportation, must include special handling service fees, in addition to regular postage.
Day-old poultry sent via air transportation must meet all provisions of the airlines. Delivery of the mailpiece is dependent on the availability of air carriers having available equipment to safely deliver the day–old poultry within the specified time limit.
Day–old poultry that is first shipped via a commercial air express or air cargo service and then presented for mailing to a final destination must be in good condition and properly packaged as specified in 526.32a-e.
Boxes of day–old poultry of about identical size, securely fastened together to prevent separation in transit, may be accepted for mailing as a single parcel, provided the total length and girth combined does not exceed Postal Service limits.
See Exhibit 526.33, Requirements for Mailing Live, Day–Old Poultry. See Chapter 7 regarding domestic mail shipments sent via air transportation.
526.33 Claims for Live, Day–Old Poultry


526.5 Live Scorpions
The mailing of scorpions is limited by the restrictions in 18 U.S.C. 1716. Under this limitation, scorpions are mailable only when sent for the purposes of medical research use or the manufacture of antivenin. Scorpions are nonmailable under any other circumstances. See Exhibit 526.5 for mailing conditions that apply to permissible shipments.

Exhibit 526.5
Restrictions on Mailing Live Scorpions
Live scorpions are mailable only if EACH of the following conditions is met:
1.
Must be for delivery only within the continental United States.
2.
May be sent only by surface transportation.
3.
Must be sent only for special purposes of either:
Medical research use.
Manufacture of antivenin.
4.
Must be properly packaged prior to mailing, as follows:
Live scorpions is packed in a double container system, with each receptacle closed or fastened in such a way as to prevent escape.
Inner receptacle is made of material that cannot be punctured by a scorpion.
Inner receptacle is marked “Live Scorpions.”
Cushioning material is used to prevent shifting of the inner receptacle.
Design of packaging is of sufficient strength, as required in 522, to prevent crushing of the mailpiece or escape of the contents during normal Postal Service handling and transport.
Address side of mailpiece is clearly marked “Live Scorpions.”
526.6 Small, Harmless, Cold–Blooded Animals

Small, harmless, cold–blooded animals, except for snakes, turtles, and turtle eggs, are mailable only when they meet certain requirements. For some examples, see Exhibit 526.6.

Exhibit 526.6
Requirements for Mailing Small, Harmless, Cold–Blooded Animals (Except Snakes, Turtles, and Turtle Eggs)
General Requirements:
All animals in this group:
Must be able to reach their destination in good condition in the normal transit time between the mailing and address points.
Must not require any food, water, or attention during transport.
Must not create sanitary problems.
Must not create obnoxious odors.
Specific Requirements by Animal:
Baby Alligators
Baby Caimans
Chameleons
Frogs
Lizards
Newts
Reptiles and Amphibians
Salamanders
Tadpoles and Toads
Animals must not exceed 20 inches in length.
No additional requirements, except the applicable standards in section 52.
Packaging must comply with 522.
Specific Requirements by Animal:
Goldfish
Tropical Fish
Fish must be held in a securely sealed primary receptacle.
Primary receptacle must be cushioned with sufficient absorbent material to take up all liquid in case of leakage.
Primary receptacle and absorbent cushioning material must be sealed within waterproof outer (shipping) packaging.
Worms
Bloodworms
Hellgrammites
Leeches
Mealworms
Snails
No additional requirements, except the applicable standards in section 52.
Packaging must comply with 522.
Nonpoisonous Insects
No additional requirements, except the applicable standards in section 52.
Packaging must comply with 522.





Link to "525 Nonmailable Live Animals" Link to contents for "5 Perishable Matter" Link to Index Link to "53 Fresh Foods and Other Perishables"

[Moontanman]

They sent it back to you?  For what reason?  Did they cite a regulation this time?

 

 

All they said on the return package was insufficient funds for shipping. I have shipped many fish priority mail, in fact the fish shipped to me that i was returning the favor for were shipped priority mail. 

[Moontanman]

ITell them you want the code, the actual code in the regulations. Not what they say it says; you want the code -every last initial, comma, section #, etc.- so you can look it up yourself on your terms.

If "express only" is legit, it is either very, very new; or is never enforced. Given the way my coworkers like to pick on me I am sure I would've heard something from one of them about a change in fish shipping regs.

Honestly, this smells "PETA-esque" to me; someone with their own agenda who probably knows jack squat about actually shipping animals deciding what is best for them. I could be very wrong, but that's been my first impression. Quite possibly someone has their own interpretation of regs, or outdated ones, etc.

Will look into this as I can. The ironic thing about working at the PO is that it often makes it very difficult to actually use the post office. Believe it or not, most of us are busy working!

 

 

Two people behind the counter agreed that life fish had to be mailed express mail which would have been $55, they took out some sort of regulation paper but wouldn't let me see it. The post office was almost deserted so it's wasn't like they were busy.  We exchanged pleasantries as he weighed the package, he called over another guy and they started reading from some long paper and then turned to me and told me that live fish cannot be shipped priority mail, it must be shipped express mail. I politely told him I couldn't afford that he laughed and agreed it was very high. I took the box and went home.

 

The next day I went there with the intent of getting some answers. I took the box that fish had been sent to me in to show him but another guy took my box no questions.

 

The next day it was delivered back to me saying it required an additional $36 dollars shipping. No other reason was given. I am at a lost to even know who to complain to. I tried to use the e-mail given on the USPA site but it came back invalid. I paid them money and they kept the money and demanded more, almost feels like robbery...   

[mattknepley]

And from The Mailing Standards of the United States Postal Service, Domestic Mail Manual https://pe.usps.com/..._landing.htm...

9.3.3 Small Cold-Blooded Animals
Small, harmless, cold-blooded animals (except snakes and turtles) that do not require food or water or attention during handling in the mail and that do not create sanitary problems or obnoxious odors are mailable (e.g., baby alligators and caimans not more than 20 inches long, bloodworms, earthworms, mealworms, salamanders, leeches, lizards, snails, and tadpoles) [are acceptable for mailing].

The following rule may be where Moon's friend at the Post Office thinks they have justification for saying "express is required". From the same source as above, just a few lines down...

9.3.11 Acceptance
The USPS does not accept any shipment of animals that the USPS reasonably believes cannot reach its destination in a viable condition. Such a determination is based on factors including the expected temperatures (weather conditions) while the shipment is in the mail; the types of vehicles on which the shipment is to be transported; the expected transit time; and the types of packaging used for protection against suffocation, crushing, and handling.

But of course, people have been shipping fish around the country for decades, so this is no leg for them to stand on unless the weather is extreme. As for any "requires water" objection they may raise, politely point out that this refers to drinks of water, not being shipped in water,or there would be no standards for shipping fish as shown above.

[mattknepley]

Try one more time, with the manager if your office is big enough, or go straight to the post master. Not the clerks. Tell them you have reviewed the regulations and feel there has been an error. Be prepared to cite the regs listed above, to explain how fish can go days without eating and retain health, et cetera. If that does not work, tell them you know how to file an E.C.C. case regarding the money you have not been returned for the package they declined to mail. (It doesn't quite work exactly that way, but you want to be a headache. Just remember to remain a polite headache.) You will also file complaints for their not knowing how to do their admittedly complex job but being unwilling to follow postal standards when shown the proper ones; you will start with the online survey indicated at the bottom of the receipt for your priority mail purchase, and then you will take the same complaint to the same folks who handle E.C.C. cases. Inform them you also intend to tell the next up in the chain of command that you are very likely taking your shipping business elsewhere, specifically due to this issue.

If it works there like it does here, E.C.C. cases mean headaches for postmasters. (It doesn't matter that you don't know what one is; if you know enough to say E.C.C. they should realize that you know people in USPS.) The online surveys are kinda big with some USPS management-types here now, so that might help too. This approach might just serve to make 'em mad, but it might help. If not, follow through with your threat. I'll help you. I am far from the best postal employee to ever breathe, but I care about my job (and fish) and this type of nonsense really bothers me. Clerks really do have a ton of responsibilities they know they have to handle every day, they have another ton they reasonably can expect to have to handle. Dealing with shipping fish is outside the pale for most, to be sure, but when the appropriate regs are there for them and the public to see and use, and they use regs they won't show you as their justification for charging $55, I start to lose patience...


Of course, it might just be easier to go to another post office where they know what they're doing. (Assuming some joker at their plant isn't the issue.) I just have a tendency to get indignant and they I get grouchy...

[mattknepley]

Hah! I get stupid when I get mad. Dustin posted half those regs before I did, and in much more readable form!

[Moontanman]

Alright Matt.  You are going to have to delve into the labyrinth that is your employer and let us know where this regulation is.  I cannot find it.  I can't believe they shipped the fish back to Moon instead of just forwarding them on after they had been accepted and paid for.

 

 

I
Tell them you want the code, the actual code in the regulations. Not what they say it says; you want the code -every last initial, comma, section #, etc.- so you can look it up yourself on your terms.

If "express only" is legit, it is either very, very new; or is never enforced. Given the way my coworkers like to pick on me I am sure I would've heard something from one of them about a change in fish shipping regs.

Honestly, this smells "PETA-esque" to me; someone with their own agenda who probably knows jack squat about actually shipping animals deciding what is best for them. I could be very wrong, but that's been my first impression. The fact they were sent back is interesting, did your p.o. send it back, or did their processing and distribution facility (commonly called "the plant" around here.)
Quite possibly someone has their own interpretation of regs, or outdated ones, etc. Perhaps they have the "72 hour rule" for day old poultry (see next post) in their head as a catch-all reg for shipping animals.

Will look into this as I can. The ironic thing about working at the PO is that it often makes it very difficult to actually use the post office. Believe it or not, most of us are busy working!

 

 

I am going to try again monday at the main post office downtown. I'm not sure if I will get my money back or not, I hope I do, people who just make your life hard because they can are on my list... Thank you guys for the advice, I thought our entire hobby had died and no one told me! 

 

I was very polite, for some reason I tend to get polite when I get angry. I did point out that I had shipped fish from that branch post office many times and that fish had recently been shipped to me priority mail

Edited by Moontanman, 30 June 2017 - 07:06 PM.

[gerald]

This reminds me of that wonderful scene in The Incredibles where Bob (Mr. Incredible) is working as an insurance adjuster, steathily coaching a desperate old lady on how to play hardball against his company's ruthless policies.

 

 

Try one more time, with the manager if your office is big enough, or go straight to the post master. Not the clerks. Tell them you have reviewed the regulations and feel there has been an error. Be prepared to cite the regs listed above, to explain how fish can go days without eating and retain health, et cetera. If that does not work, tell them you know how to file an E.C.C. case regarding the money you have not been returned for the package they declined to mail. (It doesn't quite work exactly that way, but you want to be a headache. Just remember to remain a polite headache.) You will also file complaints for their not knowing how to do their admittedly complex job but being unwilling to follow postal standards when shown the proper ones; you will start with the online survey indicated at the bottom of the receipt for your priority mail purchase, and then you will take the same complaint to the same folks who handle E.C.C. cases. Inform them you also intend to tell the next up in the chain of command that you are very likely taking your shipping business elsewhere, specifically due to this issue.

If it works there like it does here, E.C.C. cases mean headaches for postmasters. (It doesn't matter that you don't know what one is; if you know enough to say E.C.C. they should realize that you know people in USPS.) The online surveys are kinda big with some USPS management-types here now, so that might help too. This approach might just serve to make 'em mad, but it might help. If not, follow through with your threat. I'll help you. I am far from the best postal employee to ever breathe, but I care about my job (and fish) and this type of nonsense really bothers me. Clerks really do have a ton of responsibilities they know they have to handle every day, they have another ton they reasonably can expect to have to handle. Dealing with shipping fish is outside the pale for most, to be sure, but when the appropriate regs are there for them and the public to see and use, and they use regs they won't show you as their justification for charging $55, I start to lose patience...


Of course, it might just be easier to go to another post office where they know what they're doing. (Assuming some joker at their plant isn't the issue.) I just have a tendency to get indignant and they I get grouchy...

[mattknepley]

This reminds me of that wonderful scene in The Incredibles where Bob (Mr. Incredible) is working as an insurance adjuster, steathily coaching a desperate old lady on how to play hardball against his company's ruthless policies.

I love that scene. Unlike Bob, I do like my employer, warts and all. I'm no Cliff Claven in my loyalty, but I've had enough jobs to know I have it pretty good with this one.


I do have a knee-jerk reaction mentality sometimes, hence my tirades yesterday. And again, observe how inefficient my rants can be. I read Dustin's post, and still posted a less usable version of the very same regs he did! Just going to another p.o. is probably really the best approach. Have the updated regs we have discussed here at the ready. If the regs the clerks at the problematic p.o. had were preprinted, those are likely the same ones most other offices have immediately at hand. Updating fish-shipping protocols is probably not a priority most places.

Returning the fish was actually the proper thing to do, given the misguided approach of the problem p.o. Very few people will pay 36 clams on postage due items, and then the fish have to be returned. Not good business, and extra box-time for the animals.

But I will help you with the complaints if you like, Moon. It isn't any secret inside stuff, and I'm not 'that guy who knows people', but I can point you to the right phone #s, etc.

[Moontanman]

Any help you could provide would be welcome, I am going to try again monday at the main post office down town.