Red Moss

I was thinking about adding some moss from the river to my tank and I was wondering if it would benefit the tank. The moss I'm wanting to add is a redish colored moss (I'll take some pictures). I plan on having it in with some darters and stonerollers.

I was wondering how hard is it to get it to attach to something in the tank (and what would be a good way of doing this)? The moss that I'm wanting to add seems to thrive in fast moving water; can that be a problem (I have also seen it in slow moving currents, but not nearly as much)? Would it be better to buy java moss?

My guess is that the plant you are seeing is Podostemum ceratophyllum, sometimes called "riverweed". This is a species that lives on river rocks, usually in cold rivers (although there seems to be some strains that live in specific warmer rivers). Although it looks like a moss, it is actually a vascular plant (having "veins") and actually has tiny flowers! It can handle fast flowing water, which many other vascular plants can not. It feels sort of crispy to the touch, and I suspect requires calcium in the water. What you are seeing may also have some red algae (Rhodophora) mixed in.

I have tried to keep this species once. It disintegrated after a couple weeks. I contacted a professor (I forget which university) that studies it, and he had not been able to keep it either. That said, if you really want to try it, collect a rock that already has it attached, and use an aquarium with high flow and cold water. I suspect you will need a chiller to be successful. Be sure the mineral content of the water is high, especially calcium. Do not use any sand or dirt in the tank, as it is easily smothered. You will need very high light intensity.

This is a species with a declining distribution. It is an indicator of very good water quality. As it is easily smothered by siltation, so is disappearing in areas where there is development. If you do collect some, only take a little.

I have tried to keep this species once. It disintegrated after a couple weeks. I contacted a professor (I forget which university) that studies it, and he had not been able to keep it either. That said, if you really want to try it, collect a rock that already has it attached, and use an aquarium with high flow and cold water. I suspect you will need a chiller to be successful. Be sure the mineral content of the water is high, especially calcium. Do not use any sand or dirt in the tank, as it is easily smothered. You will need very high light intensity.

This is a species with a declining distribution. It is an indicator of very good water quality. As it is easily smothered by siltation, so is disappearing in areas where there is development. If you do collect some, only take a little.

I don't think I want to try it since you couldn't keep it. Besides that my tank is a sand tank currently.

It's not in decline here, it is all over the Greenbrier river. Kinda funny you said "very good water quality", most people here think the Greenbrier is very polluted (they see some kinda nasty stuff floating down the river, which when the water is shallow it looks like some sort of plant). A lot of people think that the Greenbrier river is so nasty...

I've heard that if hellgramites and mayflys are in the river that it has to be a clean river. I think a lot of peope react the way they do is because of the floating plant.

I made several attemps with riverweed attached to cobble and they were all unsuccessful. The best I had was a near complete die off followed by some regeneration on the ends. That being said, I would still bring in a small piece of cobble everynow and then because I was working in a river where it dominated shoals and the darters in my tanks absolutely went wild because of all the inverts it held. I totally agree with the intense light. Where I would encounter it in Tennessee was areas with open or no canopy cover. In fact, where I observed it increasing on shoals was where we saw erosion/sloughing and tree falls causing loss of shade. My final side observation, riverweed from the Emory River in Tennessee was practically like coral it was so abrasive as opposed to other nearby streams in the TN River drainage (not on Plateau). The geology of that watershed is primarily sandstone as opposed to the rest of the surrounding watersheds which are dominated by limestone and dolomite.

I'll take some pictures Monday evening. It's all over this certain part of the river where I use to fish quite a bit. The part of the river I'm referring to has huge flat rocks, that the water flows over. My wife and I use to fish underneath the ledges there while sitting on it. You can take your hand and lay it on the river weed, and in a few seconds little hellgramites will be crawling on your hand. The river weed is like a big blanket covering just about all of those flat rocks.

I've noticed some of it growing in the shade on big boulders (way too big for someone to pick up). I think it would be more abundant if people didn't hunt for hellgramites in the area.

I've heard that if hellgramites and mayflys are in the river that it has to be a clean river. I think a lot of peope react the way they do is because of the floating plant.

In my stream ecology class we did numerous biotic indices using macroinvertebrate samples from lakes, and rivers in the Adirondacks. One of the quickest indicators of water quality (pertaining to temperature and dissolved oxygen) was an EPT indices calc. Plecopteras, ephemeroperas and tricopteras (stone fly, may fly, caddis fly) are some of the more intolerant of low DO/temp, plecopteras tending to be the least tolerant of poor water quality. Low DO is often caused by high nutrient load also. That being said, there are species of plecops, ephems, and tricops that exist is very slow waters with sappric soils where oxygen levels are much lower.

I had some tricoperas, Hydropsychidae, in a rivertank I kept and they were awesome. they made little webs and came out of thier holes to eat flake food they caught. Megolaperta coydalidae, the big, armored hellgramites ate some of my small fish though.

I haven't been able to go to the river recently.

I had some tricoperas, Hydropsychidae, in a rivertank I kept and they were awesome. they made little webs and came out of thier holes to eat flake food they caught. Megolaperta coydalidae, the big, armored hellgramites ate some of my small fish though.

I thought hellgramites only ate other insect larvae. The hellgramites that I have kept, usually survived on something (I have no idea what since I hardly saw them).
The hellgramites that I have kept did pretty good when the water quality wasn't good enough to keep fish alive in. They survived along with some crawdads; I had good circulation in the water.

I believe quite a few people think since the water is polluted (in their mind) it's fine to pollut the water worse. It's pretty common for people to throw tires in the river Some places here will take tires for free, thank goodness, but some people would rather throw them in the river still.

I thought hellgramites only ate other insect larvae. The hellgramites that I have kept, usually survived on something (I have no idea what since I hardly saw them).

They did end up eating most of the tricops. They may not have caught them, but I most certainly saw one them eating a neon tetra and others mysteriously diappeared during the night. Its possible the fish died and the megs were eating what they could find, but the fish appeared to be healthy prior to. I always wondered because the megs don't appear to be well suited to catching fish. The coolest insect I kept was an underwater walking stick (don't know the specific ID). It died when it ate some sort of red beetle that fell into the tank. It was stiff as aboard, red in the face and still had the beetle impaled on its sucker.

I took a few pictures; I was able to find a rock covered with moss. I would have took some pictures of the area, but I forgot my camera in the car. I put the rock back in the river where I found it.
Quite a bit of the moss was growing in the shade on the sides of the river.

I saw a rock covered with a green version of that stuff. I thought it was a type of algae. I found some in a lake a couple days ago, so I brought it home, and it's doin' good as far as I can tell.

Now that I see it, it does not look like Podostemum. It looks like a type of red algae. I'd give it a shot!

See that still looks like riverweed to me. I've noticed it being red along with green and even green turning to red on the tips. The holdfasts/attachments to the rock still look like riverweed as well as the branching. I'll try and dig up some pictures but I'm not sure where my snorkeling CDs are right now, probably in my office.

Thanks, everyone! I think I will try to keep some, and see how it does. Stonerollers and other minnows love this stuff. My son and I can sit down (relaxing) on this stuff while tons of stonerollers swim around us.

ashtonmj, I would like to see what you're talking about if it's not much trouble.

Okay here goes a few pictures...

Sorry, for not replying sooner. Some of the red algae that I noticed had green tips, but were not green. The whole area that I got that from has dark red algae, no green to be found.

The first rock that I found (too big to carry up the trail) had green tips.

Hi there...
I am a grad student looking at Podostemum ceratophyllum persistence and recovery in two southeastern rivers...
I am looking for others who are studying this plant to learn more about its decline in some states and possible causes.
If anyone has any contacts I could try, that would be fantastic!
thanks so much!

Jennifer Pahl
University of Georgia

Hi Jennifer,

Small world. You are in my old grad department, it seems. I studied under Becky Sharitz (she's adjunct). Anyway, I don't have any contacts for you, but can keep a note of where I see it, if this would help your research.

Hi Jennifer,

Small world. You are in my old grad department, it seems. I studied under Becky Sharitz (she's adjunct). Anyway, I don't have any contacts for you, but can keep a note of where I see it, if this would help your research.

Hi! Wow, it is a small world! I am working under Ron Carroll in the River Basin Center, but I did take a wetlands class with Becky - she's great!
Anyway, if you do happen to jot down when you see it, that would be fantastic! I am looking specifically at how upstream dams and water withdrawals influence the persistence and productivity of podostemum. I have seen through the USDA plant database that podostemum is listed as of special concern, threatened and endangered in other states, so I am interested in finding out more about its current status along the east coast.
I'll just keep an eye on this forum, so if you happen to run across it and don't mind posting when and where you saw it, I would really appreciate it!
thanks again!
Jennifer

Hi! Wow, it is a small world! I am working under Ron Carroll in the River Basin Center, but I did take a wetlands class with Becky - she's great!
Anyway, if you do happen to jot down when you see it, that would be fantastic! I am looking specifically at how upstream dams and water withdrawals influence the persistence and productivity of podostemum. I have seen through the USDA plant database that podostemum is listed as of special concern, threatened and endangered in other states, so I am interested in finding out more about its current status along the east coast.
I'll just keep an eye on this forum, so if you happen to run across it and don't mind posting when and where you saw it, I would really appreciate it!
thanks again!
Jennifer

I have seen good amounts of podostemum in the rapidan river near fredericksburg, va in recent years.

I don't like bumping my old topic, but here's an update about the Red Algae or Riverweed. After my rainbow darters and Stonerollers (I think they ate some of it) fed off of the rocks that I had collected, it died some. It just in the past few months has started sprouting little green stems, that are attaching to the rock in the same way (it isn't around stonerollers or rainbow darters anymore, they died from my stupidity). The rocks that I collected were not that bushy or big as the one in the picture (I put that rock back). I have never seen it green bushy, just green tips, where it attaches to rocks.

I have some plant sprouting in my 10 gal. currently, but I doubt that's it. It's coming straight up through the plastic gravel filter thing. I also have no idea where it came from either... If it came from the rocks or not. I am pleased that something is growing finally

Edited by factnfiction101, 26 January 2009 - 02:31 PM.