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Id Help On Some Pics From Nc ?


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#1 smbass

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 07:23 PM

Ok I know it has been a while but I have been very busy so I am finally getting around to organizing all my pictures and I'm down to a few I had questions about...

Lythrurus species from the dan river drainage, Dustin if you recall you pictured this fish as well and we were debating on either pinewoods shiner or rosefin shiner, did you ever figure this guy out? anyone else can feel free to input their ideas as well.
Attached File  lythrurus.jpg   22.76KB   21 downloads

Ok this is a little madtom from Naked Creek in Richmond county. I think this is a margined madtom but for some reason I recall there was some talk that they might be something else at this location?
Attached File  margin.jpg   25.59KB   18 downloads

Next is an unknown minnow from little mountain creek and I recall that none of us knew what this guy was at time of capture anyone have any ideas?
Attached File  Minnow_Notropis.jpg   16.22KB   29 downloads

Next are two shots of a very nice male Nocomis from the second day up in the mountains from fox ridge run which I believe was the New River drainage. Are these just river chub? They looked quite different from river chub I have seen other places.
Attached File  Nocomis_head.jpg   58.49KB   22 downloads
Attached File  Nocomis.jpg   27.93KB   30 downloads

Next same creek and I am almost positive on this one but I just wanted to check on it as a redlip shiner.
Attached File  Redlip.jpg   24.13KB   29 downloads

The last one I am pretty confident on as well but I wanted to be sure this is a piedmont darter and not a chainback. It was found in little mountain creek in the Pee Dee drainage.
Attached File  Piedmont_Darter2_from_Little_Mountain_Creek_in_the_Pee_Dee_River_Drainage_NC_06_09_07_by_JZ.jpg   30.09KB   25 downloads

Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#2 Dustin

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 08:23 PM

These are:

1) L. ardens
2) N. insignis
3) N. hudsonius
4-5) N. biguttatus?
6) N. chiliticus
7) P. crassa

You pretty much had them all. I'm not positive on the chub, but I do know that that area has river and hornyhead and this fish looks different from the rivers.

Dustin Smith
At the convergence of the Broad, Saluda and Congaree
Lexington, SC


#3 farmertodd

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 08:32 PM

Micropogon only has tubercules to between the eyes, biguttatus will have them between and behind the eyes onto the nape and sometimes right up to the first row of scales.

Beautiful chiliticus.

I also don't think the hudsonius ID is correct, esp if it's from a "mountain stream". I don't have a positive alternative right now, and I really don't like the angle away with the mouth, do you have a picture that shows the mouth better? What are the Phenacobius you have in the upper New or TN? It looks like a pretty big nose on that guy. Crassilabrum perhaps?

Todd
The Muddy Maumee Madness
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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#4 ashtonmj

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 06:24 AM

I agree that isn't hudsonius. I don't think that is a Phenacobius. The angle of the picture and nose make it look a little bigger/decieving and it doesn't look underslung enough. It doesn't look like anything on the other side of the mountains like uranops. I want to say it's a Notropis, like something in black lined group that includes boops, bifrenaturs, procnce, etc.
Matt Ashton
Chesapeake Bay
Baltimore, MD

#5 fritz

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 06:56 AM

Both Nocomis leptocephalus and N. platyrhynchus occur in the New drainage. We got a tuberculate bigmouth chub on our trip there which I can post at another time. Based on the tuberculation I believe the fish shown is a leptocephalus.

The little shiner with the stripe might be a whitemouth shiner.

By the way, Little Mountain Creek is in the Pee Dee drainage.

#6 smbass

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 07:59 AM

Thanks guys, and it looks like we are down to the chub from the New River drainage and the shiner from the Pee Dee drainage. I beleive Dustin and Drew were with me when we caught those shiners in the Pee Dee and at the time we thought they were a Notropis of some sort. Also Gerald collected at the same site that the chub was captured the day before so maybe someone could inform him there is a question he may be able to help address. Those were the two I had the most question about as well. Here are three more pictures of the minnow, not sure any are that great, and a female of the same species of chub. I noticed the very red eye on these chub right away. Hope this helps, not sure I can provide any more info than that.

Attached Files


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#7 Uland

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 09:19 AM

This is the same fish we discussed after the convention Dustin and Fritz. I'll add two additional photos I snapped of the fish as well for good measure.

Attached File  1_114.jpg   134.81KB   12 downloads
Attached File  1_116.jpg   49.78KB   11 downloads
Floats up, lead down

#8

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 10:43 AM

Could this be hybopsis amblops?

#9 Uland

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 11:06 AM

The little shiner with the stripe might be a whitemouth shiner.


I read up on the Whitemouth shiner and was convinced until I saw this is usually a small fish.

The below is a poor photo of a Spottail shiner (N. hudsonius) from the Illinois river taken a week ago.
Attached File  N.hudsonius.jpg   43.34KB   37 downloads
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#10 EdBihary

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 11:12 AM

The below is a poor photo of a Spottail shiner (N. hudsonius) from the Illinois river taken a week ago.
Attached File  N.hudsonius.jpg   43.34KB   37 downloads

Your definition of a poor photo is most people's definition of a great photo! Your photography is outstanding.

#11 Uland

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 11:56 AM

Your definition of a poor photo is most people's definition of a great photo! Your photography is outstanding.


That's very kind of you Ed. I should explain that I'm trying to collect ID quality photos and assemble them at a later date as a library of sorts. I look for photos that have subjects with all fins erect, no scales missing, in focus and a clean background. I call photos "poor" that don't meet most of these marks.
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#12 fritz

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 09:39 PM

after sseing the size of the shiner, I agree with Dustin that it is a spottail shiners. Our Atlantic slope spottails look nothing like what Uland showed from the Midwest. I will try and remember to upload photos of it and the New River Nocomis soon.

#13 farmertodd

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 10:18 PM

Yeah, the Great Lakes fish are very slab sided, with a dorsal spot the size of texas. Another strong characteristic are that their scales slough off if you look them sideways. You end up with scales in your ears, hair, nose everywhere, if you get into a mess of these guys.

Uland, do you know if these fish are Chicago San Canal introductions to the Illinois, or historic in the drainage? I guess I can look Monday in Fishes of IL, but I might not remember to.
The Muddy Maumee Madness
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
http://www.farmertodd.com

#14 Uland

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 10:59 PM

Yeah, the Great Lakes fish are very slab sided, with a dorsal spot the size of texas. Another strong characteristic are that their scales slough off if you look them sideways. You end up with scales in your ears, hair, nose everywhere, if you get into a mess of these guys.

Uland, do you know if these fish are Chicago San Canal introductions to the Illinois, or historic in the drainage? I guess I can look Monday in Fishes of IL, but I might not remember to.


Yes Todd the scales come off just thinking about photographing them and Spottails have been in the Illinois for a long time. It's impossible with all the different waters intermingling to know for certain but I suspect these are natural Illinois River inhabitants.
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#15 farmertodd

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 07:18 AM

Now that I've had a chance to hit the books, I retract my doubt and completely agree with Dustin's initial ID of hudsonius (and Fritz's). Sorry for making an issue of this :)

Pfeeeeewww... <sarcasm> No work to be done there, now is there? </sarcasm>

Do you see a gradient toward a more slab sided fish in the Piedmont and onto the costal plain?

This could be another "species" with dual Pleistocene refugia.

And yeah Uland, the Great Lakes version probably regained entry through Lake Chicago - Algonquin outlet in the Illionis River.

What's really knockin' my noodle is wether the New York and New Jersey phenotype is Great Lakes related. I'm going to bet a nickle that was a Mohawk River recolonization from the western refugia.

Anybody got pictures of specimens from NY?

Todd
The Muddy Maumee Madness
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
http://www.farmertodd.com

#16 Uland

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 08:49 AM

Pfeeeeewww... <sarcasm> No work to be done there, now is there? </sarcasm>


I'm not really that kind of guy but by golly the two fish are crazy different. I think I agree with you %100 Todd.
I recall the first time Dustin saw a photo of my local Spottails. He was just as freaked out then, as I was when I was told these are the same species.

I really want to see hudsonius from N.W. Territories and MN and NY and SC now.


And yeah Uland, the Great Lakes version probably regained entry through Lake Chicago - Algonquin outlet in the Illionis River.


I want to get a sample from lake Michigan before the cold weather starts. Maybe I'll get lucky enough to find someone to pull a seine with me and compare.
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#17 farmertodd

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 09:30 AM

Maybe I'll get lucky enough to find someone to pull a seine with me and compare.


You guys are really trying to get me in trouble, aren't you!? :)
The Muddy Maumee Madness
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
http://www.farmertodd.com