I used to catch pickerel in Nj years ago in the high tanin waters coming out of the NJ Pine Barrens. I remember some of them being more colorful than others (i am guessing redfin vs chain). ANyone know both or all three are caught in this area. I am thinking of going back there next spring/summer to do a little collecting on some of the streams I used to fish...

Thank you,
Dov

All three as in northern pike also??? That would be a big NO. They aren't native to anywhere near NJ and though they have (likely) been introduced the barrens stream habitat isn't really their thing. Probably chains and redfins like there are on the coastal plain in MD.

All three as in northern pike also??? That would be a big NO. They aren't native to anywhere near NJ and though they have (likely) been introduced the barrens stream habitat isn't really their thing. Probably chains and redfins like there are on the coastal plain in MD.

all three - I meant grass? I know that isn't Northerns habitat....but they are in NJ - I know in Spruce Run Reservior...

Do the Chains & Redfin mix up territiory?? Cuase I am thinking of where I was catching which one and I remember the chains being in this lake and tidal areas and the Redfins being in these cold clear Pine Barrens streams - some of which were drained into the Barnegat Bay - don't think they were Brakish though...

Grass and redfin (Esox americanus) are the same species, just common name differs by what side of the mountains you are on.
Subspecies VERMICULATUS formerly was regarded as a distinct species (Lee et al. 1980, Nelson 1984).

all three - I meant grass? I know that isn't Northerns habitat....but they are in NJ - I know in Spruce Run Reservior...

Do the Chains & Redfin mix up territiory?? Cuase I am thinking of where I was catching which one and I remember the chains being in this lake and tidal areas and the Redfins being in these cold clear Pine Barrens streams - some of which were drained into the Barnegat Bay - don't think they were Brakish though...

Grass and redfin (Esox americanus) are the same species, just common name differs by what side of the mountains you are on.
Subspecies VERMICULATUS formerly was regarded as a distinct species (Lee et al. 1980, Nelson 1984).

When did they merge the subspecies? Do you have an article or something on it? I'd be interested.

Chain pics will hybridize with redfins in the wild. They produce all kinds of confusing looking critters.
I caught an 18" freak this season on rod & reel that had chain markings along side yellow "bean" shaped spots and a really cool pattern on the fins. The river I got it in has a breeding population of northern pike. Yep, I believe it was a pickeral/pike hybrid. Nope, no camera. I was really tempted to keep it just for the record but couldn't bring myself to kill it. Maybe I'll catch him again someday.

Grass and redfin (Esox americanus) are the same species, just common name differs by what side of the mountains you are on.
Subspecies VERMICULATUS formerly was regarded as a distinct species (Lee et al. 1980, Nelson 1984).

Are you sure about this?
Or are you saying that they were seperate species and now they are just subspecies.
The International Game Fish Association & the National Fresh Water Fishing Hall of Fame still recognises both the Grass Pickerel and Redfin Pickerel as seperate subspecies.
They are always right on top of these things, they were quick to recognise the Redeye Bass & the Shoal Bass as seprate species.
Also my Peterson Field Guide says that they are seprate subspecies, its copyright is 1991.

Redfin Pickerel (Esox americanus americanus)
Grass Pickerel (Esox americanus vermiculatus)

Also check NANFA species check list on the home page. It seporates them as well.

Now for the earler question, you would only have Redfin Pickerel and Chain Pickerel in NJ.

Mike

All three as in northern pike also??? That would be a big NO. They aren't native to anywhere near NJ and though they have (likely) been introduced the barrens stream habitat isn't really their thing. Probably chains and redfins like there are on the coastal plain in MD.

The NJDF&W has this to say of pike fishing in the Garden State:

The ice-out or late winter open water period can be a very productive period for northern pike fishing. Although northern pike are not native to New Jersey, fishing opportunities for pike have been available for more than 20 years due to the stocking efforts of the Division of Fish and Wildlife.

I knew they were at least near New Jersey as I came unexpectedly face-to-face with one doing some cold water SCUBA diving in Reading, PA many years ago.

I never said they weren't subspecies of each other but they are the same species. Think about it, if it is a subspecies they are the same at the SPECIES level, i.e. NOT different enough to be considered a seperate species.

Yes I did say that the subspecies E. niger vermiculatus was regarded as a distinct species but is not any more, per the two references I gave. Again, they were regarded as distinct species but they are no longer distinct species from one another.

The NANFA list also lists all the seperate subspecies of cutthroats and rainbows etc. because they are seperate subspecies. The title is "checklist of freshwater fishes of N.A., including subspecies, and undescribed forms" not the checklist of N.A. freshwater fish species.

I never said they weren't subspecies of each other but they are the same species. Think about it, if it is a subspecies they are the same at the SPECIES level, i.e. NOT different enough to be considered a seperate species.

Yes I did say that the subspecies E. niger vermiculatus was regarded as a distinct species but is not any more, per the two references I gave. Again, they were regarded as distinct species but they are no longer distinct species from one another.

The NANFA list also lists all the seperate subspecies of cutthroats and rainbows etc. because they are seperate subspecies. The title is "checklist of freshwater fishes of N.A., including subspecies, and undescribed forms" not the checklist of N.A. freshwater fish species.

Thank you for the clearification, it was unclear what you ment because Dov (in post #1)was talking about pickerel, and wanted to know if all three were in NJ.
If you noticed I asked in my post if you were talking about subspecies or not.
It sounded to me like you might have ment grass pickerel & redfin pickerel went the same way as the musky with most biologists not recognising its three subspecies.
Mike

Yes I did say that the subspecies E. niger vermiculatus was regarded as a distinct species but is not any more, per the two references I gave. Again, they were regarded as distinct species but they are no longer distinct species from one another.

There was an Esox niger vermiculatus?

Okay E. americanus vermiculatus....is this turning into a pick everyone apart for every detail post or is it a legit discussion becuase if the preivous posts had been red in regards to the clarification I gave it woudl be obvious that I was talking about E. americanus and made a typo when I promptly replied at 8 a.m. the second I walk into my office which I really have no obligation to do.

Yes Mike I was talking about them as subspecies of one another, formerly regarded as seperate species, (but not distinct species anymore) if that answers it all for you.

Okay E. americanus vermiculatus....is this turning into a pick everyone apart for every detail post or is it a legit discussion becuase if the preivous posts had been red in regards to the clarification I gave it woudl be obvious that I was talking about E. americanus and made a typo when I promptly replied at 8 a.m. the second I walk into my office which I really have no obligation to do.

Yes Mike I was talking about them as subspecies of one another, formerly regarded as seperate species, (but not distinct species anymore) if that answers it all for you.

Sorry, Matt.

Ed,

Accepted but no major deal or need to apologize. It wasn't so much directed at you as in the pervailing winds of the forum the last few weeks threads have been negative, critical, and downright picky and that is getting old and this thread was going that direction. There has not been enough sharing, educating, helping, and far too much one upping, i'll point out your mistakes.

p.s. steelers suck, go browns ! - had to lighten the mood

Ed,

Accepted but no major deal or need to apologize. It wasn't so much directed at you as in the pervailing winds of the forum the last few weeks threads have been negative, critical, and downright picky and that is getting old and this thread was going that direction. There has not been enough sharing, educating, helping, and far too much one upping, i'll point out your mistakes.

p.s. steelers suck, go browns ! - had to lighten the mood

And I'm the kind of weenie who is willing to quibble about the whole concept of subspecies being a really squishy one. But in honor of Matt doing the heavy lifting to date on this thread, I'll let it slide.....

p.s. steelers suck, go browns ! - had to lighten the mood

This coming from a guy from Baltimore? Ravens suck, go Steelers! And I won't criticize Baltimore's hockey team, or Cleveland's (ahem, hockey team in Baltimore or Cleveland?) since there's nothing to criticize - Go Penguins!

I moved here 6 months ago, I hate the Ravens with a passion. How bout those Pirates....or wait no basketball... lol

but back on topic...a good way to tell where someone learned there fish on a quiz is ask them to ID an Esox americanus. I took an ID test in Maryland and wrote down Esox americanus - grass pickerel while everyone that learned fish east of the mountains wrote down E. americanus - redfin pickerel.

....or wait no basketball [in Pittsburgh]...

I was waiting for that!
You didn't disappoint me!

... I took an ID test in Maryland and wrote down Esox americanus - grass pickerel while everyone that learned fish east of the mountains wrote down E. americanus - redfin pickerel.

...so did Paul give you your steak?

cheers,
Dave

mmmm nope and now that I think of it I don't think I saw Paul for my first couple months.