I think that is a most reasonable and responsible reply Nativeplanter.
How Does Nanfa Kill A Fish?
Started by
Guest_Seedy_*
, Nov 27 2007 07:30 PM
89 replies to this topic
#43
Guest_nativeplanter_*
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Posted 04 December 2007 - 07:05 PM
I don't think that's bad at all. If you can get it out of the tank and whack it into oblivion speedily, it should feel relatively little, I should think. Now, if you put it in a bag, go outside, and stop to chat with your neighbor over the fence before doing so, that's another story.
#44
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 04 December 2007 - 07:15 PM
Ah yes, but I hadn't thought of this: Suppose the fish feels anxiety from being removed from the water? Like the anxiety we feel from being submerged involuntarily. Do fishes feel anxiety? Surely at times they behave as if they do. How would you like to be drowned to death as you are being shot in the head?
This is just too distressing to contemplate - I'm off to form my own chapter of PETA!
This is just too distressing to contemplate - I'm off to form my own chapter of PETA!
#47
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Posted 04 December 2007 - 07:24 PM
MMMM surfeit, gimme some of the snake mackerel too!I hope you eat a surfeit of lampreys ! Fish killer!
#48
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Posted 04 December 2007 - 08:55 PM
Maybe I've been missing other peoples' points in a funny way; I don't see pain as being anthropomorphic, but as a chemically-mediated physical experience that's a consequence of a basic neurobiological plan (i.e., vertebrates). Sure, maybe there's pain and then there's pain, but if a fish is distressed and uncomfortable it's different from pain? I've been congratulating myself on avoiding anthropomorphism because my interpretation is we have a shared neurological experience, rather than humans being somehow unique. I know that if I get high concentration of MS-222 on my fingers I can't feel them, and it's for that precise reason that we would give it in overdose to a fish as euthanasia. If a fish can't feel pain, then the word has no meaning.
#49
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:01 PM
"I experience data which could be interpreted as pain" - The Terminator... Or words to the effect
Basically, pain is a feedback mechanism for avoiding/exacerbating injury. Whatever that mechanism is, and no matter how it's interpreted, its bad news.
Basically, pain is a feedback mechanism for avoiding/exacerbating injury. Whatever that mechanism is, and no matter how it's interpreted, its bad news.
#50
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Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:04 PM
I think pain and discomfort can be thought of differently. For me, breaking a bone is painful, while being hot/cold/hungry/tired/itchy is discomfort. I think my point was that we don't know what fish feel (a brain processing thing) exactly, but that it seems to be different from how we feel since our brains would process the incoming information differently. Not saying they don't feel pain, just saying that it seems that it's not in the same way we do.
#51
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Posted 05 December 2007 - 03:25 PM
Methylene blue is an irritant too, but many of us use that with relative frequency, so I doubt there's much to worry about...except carcinogens...and yes, everything is a carcinogen. Even silicon dioxide (aka sand/glass) is labeled as a carcinogen.Well...Here's the Material Data Safety Sheet for MS-222
http://www.wchemical...August15,07.pdf
It is listed as an "irritant"...
I don't see anything about it causing cancer...but then again isn't everything "mildly carcinogenic"I don't think I'd handle it or concentrated solutions of it without taking some precautions though...(skin/eyes)
#52
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Posted 05 December 2007 - 05:04 PM
I have always thought that the whole no self awareness for "lower" animals idea is a bunch of garbage, I think that most all animals are self aware, now most probably do not have the mental capacity to do much more than, eat, breed, sleep, fight etc.
Most all fish can be trained to a Pavlovian response, they come to the front glass when you come into the room to get food, many can be trained to eat floating, and prepared foods, granted some cannot.
I think fish defiantly feel pain and fear.
They avoid predators, and nets, etc
Being the ethically conscience NANFA member that i am, when putting a fish down I believe speed should really be the most important factor. Every time we net or handle a fish it panics. All good fish keepers minimize the time the fish is out of it's tank to keep stress down. The same consideration should be done with euthanizing (sp?) a fish. What is more humane? Netting and placing a fish in a plastic bag or container in the freezer for however long it takes for it's metabolism to shut down; or netting the fish, wrapping it in a towel, placing it on the floor or board and hitting it with a hammer with enough force to kill it. The whole thing is over in under 30 sec depending on how long it could take to nett the fish.
I am unsure how long it takes for freezing or clove oil to work, but i would think that a well placed blow to the head would be faster.
However you see fit to euthinize a fish, as ethical fish keepers speed should be the defining factor, to minimize fear and suffering.
Most all fish can be trained to a Pavlovian response, they come to the front glass when you come into the room to get food, many can be trained to eat floating, and prepared foods, granted some cannot.
I think fish defiantly feel pain and fear.
They avoid predators, and nets, etc
Being the ethically conscience NANFA member that i am, when putting a fish down I believe speed should really be the most important factor. Every time we net or handle a fish it panics. All good fish keepers minimize the time the fish is out of it's tank to keep stress down. The same consideration should be done with euthanizing (sp?) a fish. What is more humane? Netting and placing a fish in a plastic bag or container in the freezer for however long it takes for it's metabolism to shut down; or netting the fish, wrapping it in a towel, placing it on the floor or board and hitting it with a hammer with enough force to kill it. The whole thing is over in under 30 sec depending on how long it could take to nett the fish.
I am unsure how long it takes for freezing or clove oil to work, but i would think that a well placed blow to the head would be faster.
However you see fit to euthinize a fish, as ethical fish keepers speed should be the defining factor, to minimize fear and suffering.
#54
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Posted 28 December 2007 - 12:53 AM
It had been my intent to simply stick a whole 5 gallon pale in my deep freeze. After reading the posts here, I need to re-visit that. I may or may not have it in me to whack a fish and I most probably wouldn’t be able to drive a knife or screw driver straight through its brain although both seem to be the most humane of all dispatch methods discussed. Haven't got a clue what is within my comfort range regarding Asian Carp after reading all the comments here.
Good to see this type of discussion.
Good to see this type of discussion.
#55
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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:52 AM
I have to agree with you thereI have always thought that the whole no self awareness for "lower" animals idea is a bunch of garbage, I think that most all animals are self aware, now most probably do not have the mental capacity to do much more than, eat, breed, sleep, fight etc.
Most all fish can be trained to a Pavlovian response, they come to the front glass when you come into the room to get food, many can be trained to eat floating, and prepared foods, granted some cannot.
I think fish defiantly feel pain and fear.
They avoid predators, and nets, etc
Being the ethically conscience NANFA member that i am, when putting a fish down I believe speed should really be the most important factor. Every time we net or handle a fish it panics. All good fish keepers minimize the time the fish is out of it's tank to keep stress down. The same consideration should be done with euthanizing (sp?) a fish. What is more humane? Netting and placing a fish in a plastic bag or container in the freezer for however long it takes for it's metabolism to shut down; or netting the fish, wrapping it in a towel, placing it on the floor or board and hitting it with a hammer with enough force to kill it. The whole thing is over in under 30 sec depending on how long it could take to nett the fish.
I am unsure how long it takes for freezing or clove oil to work, but i would think that a well placed blow to the head would be faster.
However you see fit to euthinize a fish, as ethical fish keepers speed should be the defining factor, to minimize fear and suffering.
euthinizing however should only be done when it is a top priority such as a fish is dieing or whatever
now I prefer the rock method instant severing of the head no pain no suffering.....
#56
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Posted 28 December 2007 - 11:16 PM
I have to agree with you there
euthinizing however should only be done when it is a top priority such as a fish is dieing or whatever
now I prefer the rock method instant severing of the head no pain no suffering.....
I myself believe that the freezing method is simply inhumane and unacceptable. To me this is torture and you mght as well let the fish stay in the tank and suffer. Even the slightest evideince to say that the fish goes through pain before death deters me away from using this method. It is olny fair to the fish that if it is suffering that it is put to death in the most quick stress free way and there is no doubt that the whacking/blunt force method fits these requirements. I hope that all who use the freezing method take a second look at what they are doing and realize that the most humane method is blunt force to the head. Once again i'll restate that this is just MY personal belief.
#57
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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:15 PM
I recently wrote up a summary of some of the current research literature to help support a dyed fish ordinance here in OKC. There's a fairly recent issue of the journal Diseases Of Aquatic Organisms dedicated entirely to fish welfare and whether they experience fear and pain.
http://thegab.org/fo...opic.php?t=9479
We also have an article on euthanasia up
http://thegab.org/Ar...Euthanasia.html
in my opinion, Finquel (MS-222) is by far the most humane way to kill a fish.
Why? you transfer it into the solution and it gets stoned and goes to sleep and eventually dies. No struggling, minimal stress.
Clove oil does produce some initial irritation. If you think it doesn't, rub some in your eye and see how you like it. LOL
but it's pretty quick if dosed correctly. by far a distant second choice.
For all you bag smackers. I think it would be pretty stressful to be out of the water and not be able to breath for the time it would take to get them in the bag and get outside to smack them. and the potential is there for it not to work the first time around. same with a blow to the head. I hope you do get splattered.
re severing the spinal column, I've killed many a fish that way back in my fishing days. If you do it right it is quick. but again, there's the stress that's happening being out of the water and being handled prior to being killed.
I'm not convinced that freezing is humane.
I firmly believe that if we're going to keep fish, it is our responsibility to help them die peacefully if at all possible. Finquel is readily available online these days in the US and isn't expensive, I highly recommend it.
Betty
http://thegab.org/fo...opic.php?t=9479
We also have an article on euthanasia up
http://thegab.org/Ar...Euthanasia.html
in my opinion, Finquel (MS-222) is by far the most humane way to kill a fish.
Why? you transfer it into the solution and it gets stoned and goes to sleep and eventually dies. No struggling, minimal stress.
Clove oil does produce some initial irritation. If you think it doesn't, rub some in your eye and see how you like it. LOL
but it's pretty quick if dosed correctly. by far a distant second choice.
For all you bag smackers. I think it would be pretty stressful to be out of the water and not be able to breath for the time it would take to get them in the bag and get outside to smack them. and the potential is there for it not to work the first time around. same with a blow to the head. I hope you do get splattered.
re severing the spinal column, I've killed many a fish that way back in my fishing days. If you do it right it is quick. but again, there's the stress that's happening being out of the water and being handled prior to being killed.
I'm not convinced that freezing is humane.
I firmly believe that if we're going to keep fish, it is our responsibility to help them die peacefully if at all possible. Finquel is readily available online these days in the US and isn't expensive, I highly recommend it.
Betty
#59
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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:30 PM
Does anyone use benzocaine? Benzocaine baths and topical solutions are often used with amphibians; it's generally considered equivalent to MS-222, as far as efficacy and painlessness.
I have used it before as I have it around (For amphibians) but was not quite satisfied with it's use on scaled fish. Which could have been my fault. I much prefer MS-222 followed with freezing for fish.
#60
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:51 PM
Things die, and it is always unpleasant. If you need to euthanize a fish do so by the fastest means available to you. That may mean smacking it on the fishroom floor, a chemical if you have it, freezing it, whatever.
The point is, that if it is suffering, end it. No matter how you do it, it has to be better than allowing it to die slowly. I would not stress too much over finding the perfect tool of death. It will always suck.
The point is, that if it is suffering, end it. No matter how you do it, it has to be better than allowing it to die slowly. I would not stress too much over finding the perfect tool of death. It will always suck.
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