Help! Am I crazy?

This afternoon some neighbor kids told me there were fish in a little drainage ditch behind their house. So my kids and I went 5 houses down the street and found the little "stream" which I believe runs into Reed Creek which feeds the Augusta Canal and the Savannah River. Sure enough there were tadpoles, crawfish and lots of small fish. We collected several of the fish with a small dip net and took them home. I have them in a 5g tank for now. In their first couple of hours here they have eaten some tropical flakes and granules as well as a little bit of shrimp pellet. Here's the strange part: to my untrained eyes they appear to be WHITE CLOUD MOUNTAIN MINNOWS! Is this possible? Do you guys think they could actually be white clouds? Maybe some hobbiest dumped some there and they bred? I collected both adults and fry. What do you guys think?

They are a colder water fish, so it is possible. But I guarantee a photo will settle it. Without a good photo all we can do is speculate. Post one up.

look for a pic of a lowland shiner

Saw a couple of pics of the lowland. They still look like white clouds to me...

ok a pic is needed then
I said lowland because Pteronotropis species look alot like white clouds and you are in a big hot spot for lowland's

At this point, I'm pretty certain they are white clouds. I plan to contact Georgia DNR and see if know anything about it. You guys think someone may have done this for mosquito control? I was really hoping to finally have some natives. I got natives alright, natives of China...

Out of curiosity, why don't you post a photo of it here before alerting the DNR?

Out of curiosity, why don't you post a photo of it here before alerting the DNR?

I was going to say that!

The white cloud is extinct in the wild, existing now only in the aquarium hobby.
If these ARE white clouds, which is an issue still in doubt because you still haven't shown us a picture, then your report to the DNR will only either
A: accomplish nothing,
B: get the whole waterway rotenoned and everything in it exterminated,
or C: get White Clouds banned, which will lead to their final extinction. Is that what you want?



Just kidding a little, but I sure wish that people would quit freaking out and hitting the panic button when they don't even know if there's any reason to, especially before considering any possible negative outcomes.

The shiners of the Pteronotropis group do indeed look very much like White Clouds at certain stages of their lives, and you are in the zone for finding them. The Lowland Shiner has coloration which I have yet to see adequately captured on film, so don't go thinking that the pale specimens you probably did find pics of online are truly representative of the species.

No, I don't think that someone dumped Whiteclouds in a Georgia creek for mosquito control. That would have been too stupid on too many levels to comprehend. There's plenty of much better choices available for the job, and anyone trying to accomplish that goal would have picked one of those if they had half a brain. Of course, they'd have to be pretty brainless in the first place to try it, but still.

Hey! I just figured out the solution to that sort of thing! Let's ban the keeping of horses! Yes! It's the damn horse owners who keep pulling stunts like that, fearing west nile. If we got rid of the horses, then their stupid owners would quit wiping out our aquatic ecosystems in their attempts to illegally wipe out mosquitoes!

Hey! I just figured out the solution to that sort of thing! Let's ban the keeping of horses! Yes! It's the damn horse owners who keep pulling stunts like that, fearing west nile. If we got rid of the horses, then their stupid owners would quit wiping out our aquatic ecosystems in their attempts to illegally wipe out mosquitoes!

Is it now time to start an "ANTI-HORSE" campaign? If it helps natives I'm in.

Seriously, good points though.

OK, my 15yo son posted this picture for me on another forum...

http://www.fishforum...p;#entry1872654

from the other forum ... "If they can't do any harm let them be" I love it

I agree the panic button is pushed all to easily sometimes, sometimes though not enough.

The use of rotenone is pretty rare compared to 20-30 years ago and many state agencies don't even consider it an option anymore. Intensive seining, trapping, electrofishing while more labor intensive could be effective at knocking the population below viability. Even if rotenone was used, removal of natives could be done beforehand, and if the extent of the exotic is known could applied and nuetralized very specifically. Repatriation of natives removed and recolonizaiton could put things back to normal pretty quickly.

As for option C: So be it. As long as there are a few careless people dumping fish into streams and damaging native ecosystems this is the path that is being practically forced upon regulators. Banning possession of certain species is often the only option available; you try telling the pet industry (yes they have lobbysists too) to better regulate themselves, educated the public, or not to sell certain species.

Just so nobody has to jump to another forum to see the pic...

Does anyone have pictures of confirmed lowland shiner? I know Mark has sold them in the past and usually has pictures of his stock but his website down.

This photo was taken before I made any photo tanks but a confirmed lowland.

 lowlandshiner_mod1.jpg   24.89KB   3 downloads

They are definitely white clouds. My suggestion would be to collect them all, pack them up and ship them to me. I love this fish and it does great with natives. There is a guy near here that breeds them with his goldfish in big outside ponds. He has thousands. This being said, we are at approximately the same spot as Augusta so it is safe to say that they are breeding in the wild there as well.

They are definitely white clouds. My suggestion would be to collect them all, pack them up and ship them to me. I love this fish and it does great with natives. There is a guy near here that breeds them with his goldfish in big outside ponds. He has thousands. This being said, we are at approximately the same spot as Augusta so it is safe to say that they are breeding in the wild there as well.

Agreed with you! I love this fish too and they make a nice feeder fish since they are willfully breeding in tubs and don't eat their fry often. Someday ill get these meteor minnows.

You need collect all of them as possible as you can then try to give them away to some folks in this forum. I was planning to add white cloud mountain minnows to my 55gal.

from the other forum ... "If they can't do any harm let them be" I love it

I agree the panic button is pushed all to easily sometimes, sometimes though not enough.

The use of rotenone is pretty rare compared to 20-30 years ago and many state agencies don't even consider it an option anymore. Intensive seining, trapping, electrofishing while more labor intensive could be effective at knocking the population below viability. Even if rotenone was used, removal of natives could be done beforehand, and if the extent of the exotic is known could applied and nuetralized very specifically. Repatriation of natives removed and recolonizaiton could put things back to normal pretty quickly.

As for option C: So be it. As long as there are a few careless people dumping fish into streams and damaging native ecosystems this is the path that is being practically forced upon regulators. Banning possession of certain species is often the only option available; you try telling the pet industry (yes they have lobbysists too) to better regulate themselves, educated the public, or not to sell certain species.

Just playing devils advocate...while I am ALL for stiffer regulations as to the dumbing of fish...if we were to just ban any fish that could conceivably survive if dumbed, then we would literally have NO private keeping of fish...and what about domestic animals? Do we ban cat's and dogs, ferrets, many birds, most reptiles, and even if you take it far enough, many farm animals?(Feral swine are becoming a BIG problem in many areas!). Seriously...most common aquarium fish could possibly survive in at least some parts of the country(Florida, southern California), and many can survive further north...do we just ban anything that could escape and cause problems? Again..don't misunderstand, I am NOT in any way supporting release of anything, and if someone does and is caught, make it newsworthy! But if we start a "ban anything that could colonize our waters" campaign...we are on a terribly slippery slope, that may come back to haunt us all(Natives will be the FIRST fish banned in any such campaign).

I think a certification process for pet owners should be mandatory; they would have to know enough to pass tests on proper husbandry and environmental responsibility. It's probably not going to happen, though.

Just playing devils advocate...while I am ALL for stiffer regulations as to the dumbing of fish...if we were to just ban any fish that could conceivably survive if dumbed, then we would literally have NO private keeping of fish...and what about domestic animals? Do we ban cat's and dogs, ferrets, many birds, most reptiles, and even if you take it far enough, many farm animals?(Feral swine are becoming a BIG problem in many areas!). Seriously...most common aquarium fish could possibly survive in at least some parts of the country(Florida, southern California), and many can survive further north...do we just ban anything that could escape and cause problems? Again..don't misunderstand, I am NOT in any way supporting release of anything, and if someone does and is caught, make it newsworthy! But if we start a "ban anything that could colonize our waters" campaign...we are on a terribly slippery slope, that may come back to haunt us all(Natives will be the FIRST fish banned in any such campaign).

Natives are already banned statewide in some cases. No collection/selling/importation as crayfish as bait, wild minnows as bait, it's already starting. Herps are facing major regulations. Modeling invasion potential and impacts is big time now, just ask Todd. Should we have banned the larger filter feeding carps before hand because of invasion potential and the fact we knew they could wreak havoc on ecosystems, yes, did we, absolutely not, and when federal and state bans were passed the aquaculture industry and their lobbyists cry foul and sue.

A certification for fish ownership would be vehemently opposed by pet stores at the very least.