Help! Am I crazy?

Well, call ME crazy, but somehow I don't see the inoffensive little White Cloud as the new rampaging horror of the watershed. They shouldn't be there, of course, and need to be removed, but good grief, they're not Gambusia or African Tigerfish or something. This is a time for calm and measured action, not for panic.
It is not possible to prove a negative, they say, so it's true that we can't dismiss this as a harmless non-event by thinking that this fish is in a localized area and not having a profound negative effect. I personally just don't think that the situation is as bad as it very well COULD be. If you guys should find vast areas where only White Clouds reign and everything else is toast, be sure to let us know about it. I tend to doubt you'll ever find such a situation, but it could be interesting.


Now, as for a final solution to stuff like this that doesn't involve the banning of our hobby, I have it figured out already.
It's really very simple.
A lot of people are really, REALLY going to hate it, so you know it'll work just fine.

Oh, waitaminute.... I just thought of something.

If tropical fishkeeping got banned, what do you suppose would happen?

A whole lot of people would switch to natives, that's what would happen. Would that be a good thing, or a bad thing?
Don't answer here; I'll start a new discussion thread for it. We return you now to the white Cloud discussion already in progress.

Well, call ME crazy, but somehow I don't see the inoffensive little White Cloud as the new rampaging horror of the watershed.

What is it eating in the wild? And what species is it putting pressure on in competition for food?

If it is thriving in the wild, it is at the expense of other species that it is displacing.

What is it eating in the wild? And what species is it putting pressure on in competition for food?

If it is thriving in the wild, it is at the expense of other species that it is displacing.

Exactly. If you look at the photo posted by augustaranger's son, you will see that there are multiple size classes represented, and that nearly every adult female is extremely gravid. This is indicative of the classic invasions (think round goby in Lake Erie or tilapia in Florida). These fish are doing well in this ditch. Many streams in the southeast are naturally eutrophic. If this species is a better competitor than native cyprinids, we have something to worry about. This species is already invasive in South America (Venezuela if memory serves), so it does have the capacity to adapt to new environments.

A side note: As predicted by many, the species is NOT extinct in Asia. It was rediscovered in the Hong Kong in 2003.
(www.afcd.gov.hk/english/conservation/hkbiodiversity/newsletters/files/12.pdf#page=12)

Remember, invasive species need not be aggressive or piscivorous. Characterizing Tanichthys albonubes as "inoffensive" is undeserved. They are among the most hardy and fecund species available in the hobby. There are many U.S. native cyprinids that are already imperiled by habitat destruction (Notropis melanostomus, various Pteronotropis and Chirope species), and this new invader could replace them ecologically. I forget, is it P. metallicus in Augusta or P. stonei?

I am actually surprised that T. albonudes did not become established earlier, given its availability and thermal tolerance. I predict that if this population is not eradicated immediately, we will witness another species invasion in the southeast.

Sorry, it is invasive in Columbia, Madagascar, and possibly northern Australia, not Venezuela.

Well, call ME crazy, but somehow I don't see the inoffensive little White Cloud as the new rampaging horror of the watershed. They shouldn't be there, of course, and need to be removed, but good grief, they're not Gambusia or African Tigerfish or something. This is a time for calm and measured action, not for panic.

I for one am panicked! I think the state should be contacted at once and this new introduction be taken seriously. Assuming this information is true, I'm concerned it might be a little more widespread than in a little neighborhood ditch.

I am actually surprised that T. albonudes did not become established earlier, given its availability and thermal tolerance. I predict that if this population is not eradicated immediately, we will witness another species invasion in the southeast.

I have to admit that after seeing locals keep them in unheated greenhouse ponds for years, I also was surprised they haven't shown up in my seine yet.

That's exactly what I mean!

We've had this fish around for decades, and only NOW this "perfect invader" shows up in a ditch? I'm not suggesting that it's not a serious issue. I'm just suggesting that this species has probably gotten loose dozens of times already, if not hundreds, and so far it hasn't been a problem, not even sticking around long enough to be found.
Sure, they're tough and adaptable, and they can live where many other species cannot.
That neon stripe probably makes them easy meat for predators, though, so I can't help but wonder if they stay in those little ditches where the big fish can't reach them, stemming their spread.
They're tiny, and eat only tiny stuff. In sheer numbers they can collectively eat a lot, sure, but are we dealing with sheer numbers in this case? I see a few spawns ( different, but not necessarily generational spawns ) in an isolated ditch in this picture, and we haven't yet seen what effect winter will have on them.

Again, I'll believe that White Clouds are seriously displacing anything else only when it's proven, but I'll of course acknowledge the possibility. What other species are in this ditch, and what exactly are the conditions of this ditch? Would we expect to see much of anything else in this ditch under these conditions anyway? If so, then what?

That's exactly what I mean!

We've had this fish around for decades, and only NOW this "perfect invader" shows up in a ditch? I'm not suggesting that it's not a serious issue. I'm just suggesting that this species has probably gotten loose dozens of times already, if not hundreds, and so far it hasn't been a problem, not even sticking around long enough to be found.
Sure, they're tough and adaptable, and they can live where many other species cannot.
That neon stripe probably makes them easy meat for predators, though, so I can't help but wonder if they stay in those little ditches where the big fish can't reach them, stemming their spread.
They're tiny, and eat only tiny stuff. In sheer numbers they can collectively eat a lot, sure, but are we dealing with sheer numbers in this case? I see a few spawns ( different, but not necessarily generational spawns ) in an isolated ditch in this picture, and we haven't yet seen what effect winter will have on them.

Again, I'll believe that White Clouds are seriously displacing anything else only when it's proven, but I'll of course acknowledge the possibility. What other species are in this ditch, and what exactly are the conditions of this ditch? Would we expect to see much of anything else in this ditch under these conditions anyway? If so, then what?

You could have probably said the same thing about pigeons when they were restricted to the Quebec City area in the mid-nineteenth century, or starlings when they were restricted to Central Park a few decades later. They're now two of the most common birds in North America.

WCM's may or may not become a problem; why take the risk? Eliminate that population now, and look for others in the area.

Well WCMM doesn't seems very aggressive to any fish, especially in aquarium or wild and they don't eat other fish fry or eggs very much. How come we don't see them in other places if they are bad guys? They won't last in predatory fish waters due to its bright colors. And I don't know if this ditch is manmade or not.

Please save me some WCMM! I love them. I know they had to put down with some kind of poison soon but I think he should remove lots of them as possible as he can put them into big tubs or swimming pool before DNR poisoning them.

I have to say it, don't just notify DNR. Many folks working with the DNR could care less if it will not impact gamefish. I would also contact your state EPA.

I have to wonder why they aren't established somewhere already. They've been in the trade for like what, 100 years?
I think the very first pair of pigeons released probably immediately established a reproducing population.
Not to say that it's ok they are there but maybe nature will resolve the problem on its own. The ones in the picture look like the long finned variety. I doubt they're very far removed from the last pet store generation.
Maybe they will die off on their own. Maybe not. I guess something has to be done. I just hate the thought of the endless news stories and knee jerk legislation. They're banning things left and right around here. Maine has made big news after raiding a chinese restaurant to confiscate the illegal koi that lived in the display tank there.
I can't help thinking that's just a little ironic given the damage done to the native blueback trout, brook trout, and landlocked salmon by introducing lake, brown and rainbow trout. They take the koi from the chinese joint but still dump millions hatchery freak trout into state waters.
Where's the logic?

Might not be a lot of logic but a new wild population of a non native should be dealt with. I hate the negative PR but I hate the fact that people can't control themselves even more. We can't worry about what the news will report while turning a blind eye to a breeding population WCMM.

Can you tell us exactly where this ditch is please?

[quote name='teleost' date='Jan 16 2008, 01:07 AM' post='28794']
We can't worry about what the news will report while turning a blind eye to a breeding population WCMM. /quote]

Agreed.
Just thinking out loud. Was not suggesting turning a blind eye.
They gotta go. If I was closer, I'd grab some up myself.
Hopefully the ditch is isolated. Make it easier to get them all.

I have to wonder why they aren't established somewhere already. They've been in the trade for like what, 100 years?

Who says they are not established elsewhere?? A population of a fish such as this could easily be overlooked and not identified.

Yeah that colorful bit is gonna be their downfall...oh but wait how do those colorful natives avoid disappearing due to being easy for predators to see? Don't think we can be sure predators will clean up this mess. Panic no concern yes. Need a quick careful assessment of what the problem really is and a quick response. Depending on the potential of moving from this ditch to other waters it may need involvement with other agencies maybe not. Are there some list or NANFA members that have the ability to do any of this. At least contact with the local agency would be wise and offer an opportunity to get involved in the right way.

I don't see any longfinned ones in pictures.

I agreed with everyone that the WCMM should be destoryed. But still I would take 25 of them for aquarium purpose only.

Who says they are not established elsewhere?? A population of a fish such as this could easily be overlooked and not identified.

Sorry!
I personally have never heard of them established here. Neither could I find a reference to them being established in North America via Google search.
Knowing they are a species that goes back pretty much to the beginning of the aquarium hobby in this country and that millions have been kept all over the country for decades, I figured it would have been well publicized by now if they were established. They're quite well known in the countries were they ARE established such as Columbia and Australia.
Whatever.
It is a bad thing if they are! They should be removed right away! Call the state, call the feds! I hate invasives as much as anyone here!
My post above was not meant to argue against taking action! I was thinking out loud, devil's advocate, attempting to participate in a discussion.
I do not want the white clouds left where they are!
Sorry that it came off any other way. Bad communication skills.

Butch, to me the fins on a couple of the adults look longer than the ones I used to keep before they became so infamous. My Dad bred them in the 60s and they didn't look like those. My understanding is the long finned trait does not breed true and a wild population would likely revert to normal fins in a few generations [unless natural selection found some benifit in long fins, which I doubt].

The sooner the problem is recognized and ameliorated, the less likely the situation will bring negative press to the fish keeping industry.

The longer augustaranger sits on this story and doesn't report it (or give us the information so we can report it) the worse off everyone is going to be.

You're on the official forum of NANFA now, and the longer we allow this to go unreported, the less credible we become as an organization fighting to protect native fish species. I really think it is critically important at this time for you to disclose the exact location that these exotics were collected from.

I have already taken the liberty of alerting the Georgia Wildlife Resources Division about this thread, and a Mr. Ed Bettross, Senior Fisheries Biologist, is really eager to hear where these fish were collected from.

Ed Bettross
Senior Fisheries Biologist
Georgia Wildlife Resources Division
Fisheries Section
142 Bob Kirk Road, NW
Thomson, GA 30824
706-595-1619 (Thomson ph)
706-721-7409 (Augusta ph)
706-595-5639 fax
ed.bettross@dnr.state.ga.us

EDIT: I also think it would be prudent for the forum staff to provide Mr. Bettross with augustaranger's email address and any other identifying information so they can talk to each other directly.

I also think it would be prudent for the forum staff to provide Mr. Bettross with augustaranger's email address and any other identifying information so they can talk to each other directly.

Your concern is well received and recognized. Forum staff cares deeply about preserving wild fishes but at the same time we respect the privacy of the membership here. We're not going to disclose any personal information to anyone about any member without their clear consent.

Let's just calm down a bit and and try to work with augustaranger. As a team I'm sure we can convince augustaranger to contact the proper authorities (and perhaps the member already has). Can we at least give augustaranger a chance to post and tell us what's going on? Not every member posts here on an hourly basis like me

Why do posters keep keep saying that predators will clean them up because of their bright coloration? This trait is an evolutionary advantage in some way. Look at neon and cardinal tetras, marine fishes, etc., etc. Are there no predators in their native waters? The WCMM appear to be thriving, not just surviving, in this ditch.