[/quote] Personally, i thinks it's a publicity ploy pandering to a small subpopulation of anglers. [/quote]
Since this thread started, I've researched the whole situation and talked to some carp anglers and come to the conclusion that that's exactly what it is - a publicity ploy, or as I said above, a marketing ploy. Nothing more, nothing less. It has zero tangible impact outside of the coffers of local businesses.
[/quote] I don't think it coincides with the purpose of TPWD, but that debate will never end becasue their mission statement is somewhat vague.
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TP&W??? You mean the same organization that holds drawings for Exotic Safaris where the winners get to shoot sable antelope, greater kudu, gemsbok oryx, scimitar-horned oryx and common waterbuck on a WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AREA? http://www.tpwd.stat...th/safari.phtml
The one that stocked peacock bass, nile perch, muskellunge, northern pike, northern pike X pickeral hybrid, orangemouth corvina, bighead carp, grass carp, palmetto Bass (striped X white bass hybrid), florida largemouth bass, rainbow trout and a couple dozen other bizarre species in state waters???
http://www.tpwd.stat...ock_state.phtml
No, TP&W doesn't have the best record when it comes to protecting the integrity of their state's natural heritage. By comparison, this trophy carp idea, beyond the emotional response it ignites with some, is really a non-issue. From a practical, logical, scientific point of view it's nothing more than hot air.
Carp Regulation Hearing-Austin, Tx
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, Feb 20 2008 11:06 PM
36 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 23 February 2008 - 07:00 PM
The one that stocked peacock bass, nile perch, muskellunge, northern pike, northern pike X pickeral hybrid, orangemouth corvina, bighead carp, grass carp, palmetto Bass (striped X white bass hybrid), florida largemouth bass, rainbow trout and a couple dozen other bizarre species in state waters???
http://www.tpwd.stat...ock_state.phtml
Funny you mention that because the Feds have a history of doing that, too, going back to the 1800s. We just can't win down here. TPWD does have many scientists with a "natives first" mentality, but that view is often trumped in favor of the bigger is better policy. It's funny that this field is one of the places where a person that believes in conserving the unique and valuable thing that is the flora and fauna of the state is seen as a liberal (which is still a dirty word to a lot of folks). So, conservative=conservationist=liberal... It'll be interesting to see if there are any changes in the status quo with the new executive director who came over from the Nature Conservancy. The dollar sign is the great motivator, and it's a shame, but that's how it is. TPWD is much more diverse in its beliefs and goals than is often portrayed to the public, and I hope throughout this debate, people will keep that in mind. It is definitely not a monolith in lock-step, but an evolving entity. This beast does not evolve in geologic time, but in state time...
You are right in that this really should be a non-issue, but has been inflated so much it is taking off.
#23
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Posted 23 February 2008 - 07:42 PM
The good news is that on their website, on the page I linked about stocking exotics, they do say that they are coming around to the idea that stocking exotics is harmful to the environment.
It'll be an uphill battle. I'm afraid the "sportsmen" won't easily part with their exotic quarry.
It's the same here in New England. Wildlife managers would be out of a job if they were to suggest the elimination of the brown trout stocking program. In fact, we have designated "Trophy Brown Trout" waters specially managed to enhance the brown trout fishery. The only time anyone ever got upset about those was when they suggested ending the program.
It'll be an uphill battle. I'm afraid the "sportsmen" won't easily part with their exotic quarry.
It's the same here in New England. Wildlife managers would be out of a job if they were to suggest the elimination of the brown trout stocking program. In fact, we have designated "Trophy Brown Trout" waters specially managed to enhance the brown trout fishery. The only time anyone ever got upset about those was when they suggested ending the program.
#24
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Posted 23 February 2008 - 08:40 PM
Yeah, I had the experience 15 years ago in Massachusetts of arguing with two members of the environmental police about the desirability of putting pacific salmon and brown trout in rivers south of Boston. I encountered them at a herring ladder in Pembroke, and the discussion began with me talking about how good it would be to restore Atlantic salmon to local rivers. They were totally flummoxed when I said that native salmon were better than the exotics that the state had been trying to introduce for years. By the end of our conversation it was obvious that they thought I was totally out of my mind. And I hadn't even had a chance to diss carp fishing, largemouth bass fishing, or anything...
#25
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 08:10 AM
We can, and many of us do, argue and find ourselves at odds with fisheries managment policy. The simple fact is it is about money. Money generated by the sale of fishing licenses, tackle, marine supplies, and every other indirect cost associated with fishing. All someone has to do is say " ________ fishery generates $xx.xx a year " and even if there is money spent mitigating the fisheries impact it likely does not matter. Especially remeber that alot things purchased also have special taxes associated with them that go back to state resource agencies, etc.
#26
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 10:53 AM
Yeah, even in places that acutally have some relict diversity to manage. I still can't get over that TWRA is doing put and take rainbow trout at Shelbyville. This is a homogeneous riffle that has in my sampling experience, 13 species of darters (with 3 others highly likely in repeated samples), 2 that are threatened endemics, 1 more widely distributed species that's been recently delisted from "Deemed" but still on the watch list, and then 3 possibly 4 other endemic species (depending on how Doration irons out).
And TWRA KNOWS BETTER!
This is one of my favorite slides...
If folks want to spend the energy getting outraged about something... Stop wasting that energy on highly modified, historically depauperate systems and start getting pissed about places that actually matter!
Todd
And TWRA KNOWS BETTER!
This is one of my favorite slides...
If folks want to spend the energy getting outraged about something... Stop wasting that energy on highly modified, historically depauperate systems and start getting pissed about places that actually matter!
Todd
#27
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 12:31 PM
Well it is called "Fisherman's Park". So really we should petition to call it Percid Park or something else catchy. I'm not so sure the concept of an ecological landmark flies in downtown Shelbyville, Tennessee though. I never really looked at fish at Columbia, too many other things distracting me in the water, but they stock there, and in the Harpeth, West Fork Stones, some part of upper Shoal Creek near Lawrenceburg. Really, any really nice central TN stream gets rainbows, and it's not one and done, its monthly, up to 5 times. The drought has severly limited and altered this past years stocking from what I've heard.
#28
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 02:02 PM
They're doing this in Shoal Creek too?? That's disgusting! Aren't there boulder darter in there?! How do the Feds let them do this?
There's ponds right near by in local parks they can stock in Nov-Mar for trout (on every Duck and Shoal Creek place you mentioned). It makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever to do this. I know the trout aren't as apt to go hunting while there, but still. There are plenty of places near without endemism or critical populations where they can do this crap, if they're tied to doing it in rivers. Like below Center Hill Dam on the Collins, Percy Priest on the Stones, Tim Ford or better the Woods Dam on the Elk. What's the harm there? They're already FUBAR or lack the endemism.
Once I start doing work in TN, I'm writing a letter. This is madness.
Perhaps this is something interested folks in NANFA can put together and advocate... Identification of critical habitats and prevention of DNR activites counter to the maintenance of the populations in those habitats. Mel Warren was working on something like this, might be a nice way to get him into our fold
Man that would be sweet to present at SFC.
Todd
There's ponds right near by in local parks they can stock in Nov-Mar for trout (on every Duck and Shoal Creek place you mentioned). It makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever to do this. I know the trout aren't as apt to go hunting while there, but still. There are plenty of places near without endemism or critical populations where they can do this crap, if they're tied to doing it in rivers. Like below Center Hill Dam on the Collins, Percy Priest on the Stones, Tim Ford or better the Woods Dam on the Elk. What's the harm there? They're already FUBAR or lack the endemism.
Once I start doing work in TN, I'm writing a letter. This is madness.
Perhaps this is something interested folks in NANFA can put together and advocate... Identification of critical habitats and prevention of DNR activites counter to the maintenance of the populations in those habitats. Mel Warren was working on something like this, might be a nice way to get him into our fold
Man that would be sweet to present at SFC. Todd
#29
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 06:52 PM
I doubt you'd make much progress with the fisheries managers until you could bring around a significant number of fishing license purchasers. The whack 'em and stack 'em freezer fillers are not gonna give up their truck 'bows unless an alternative can be found.
You might have better luck with the Catch & Release flyfisher types, especially if there's a Trout Unlimited chapter active in the area. Local chapters, I believe, are independent and vary widely in philosophies, but I believe nationally, TU is coming around to restoring native populations. Of course, at this point that means restoring native trout populations but it's still less of a leap than it would be for the worm slingers.
Has anybody documented predation of darters by rainbows? Obviously they're gonna eat some, but if there is a diverse and abundant aquatic insect population, rainbows will rely on that much more than brown or even brook trout.
Something tells me those streams with the insane number of darter species don't have and never did have native brook trout. Is that a fair assumption?
You might have better luck with the Catch & Release flyfisher types, especially if there's a Trout Unlimited chapter active in the area. Local chapters, I believe, are independent and vary widely in philosophies, but I believe nationally, TU is coming around to restoring native populations. Of course, at this point that means restoring native trout populations but it's still less of a leap than it would be for the worm slingers.
Has anybody documented predation of darters by rainbows? Obviously they're gonna eat some, but if there is a diverse and abundant aquatic insect population, rainbows will rely on that much more than brown or even brook trout.
Something tells me those streams with the insane number of darter species don't have and never did have native brook trout. Is that a fair assumption?
#30
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 07:20 PM
The trout we are talking about are river chickens. There purpose is to be caught within a month they are stocked on power bait, corn, and night crawlers. It is HIGHLY unlikely that brook trout were on the Cumberland Plateau let alone west to the Nashville Basin. It's really isolated instances Todd and I were talking about just in very unique places. But we've really gotta get back to carp hearings in texas as a subject too and not just non-native gamefish as a whole.
#31
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 07:23 PM
I don't think TU would be much help in this region, there's just no major fisheries until you get further east into the mountains. There havn't been native brookies in this part of Tennessee since well before the last glacial advance (as differentiated as southern Appalachian brookies are, maybe even longer than that). High-diversity sites in northerly and formerly glaciated areas (like French Creek or the Tippecanoe River) are now way too warm for brookies by the time you get far enough downstream for peak darter diversity, but it likely hasn't been long since they dropped out of the fauna.
There haven't been many documented cases of darter predation by bows, although few diet studies have been done in super darter-rich habitats. There's been some concern in other states about local effects of put-n-take fisheries; Virginia was (and still is?) dumping a large number of brown trout on top of their last good candy darter population -- a former prof examined gut contents of a fair number of trout from there but I don't think he found any darters...
Hmm. It might be interesting to set up a fish cleaning booth in Shelbyville one weekend and offer free filleting of trout in exchange for the GI tracts... Doesn't look like I'll be back that way before May though.
Dave
(sorry Matt, wasn't trying to continue to the derail...)
There haven't been many documented cases of darter predation by bows, although few diet studies have been done in super darter-rich habitats. There's been some concern in other states about local effects of put-n-take fisheries; Virginia was (and still is?) dumping a large number of brown trout on top of their last good candy darter population -- a former prof examined gut contents of a fair number of trout from there but I don't think he found any darters...
Hmm. It might be interesting to set up a fish cleaning booth in Shelbyville one weekend and offer free filleting of trout in exchange for the GI tracts... Doesn't look like I'll be back that way before May though.
Dave
(sorry Matt, wasn't trying to continue to the derail...)
Edited by daveneely, 24 February 2008 - 07:26 PM.
#32
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 07:23 PM
Something tells me those streams with the insane number of darter species don't have and never did have native brook trout. Is that a fair assumption?
I think you're getting at a source of predators?
Well, it depends... Brookies are found in some of insane richness streams in the east, but not in the segments that have the insane richness. Brook trout (like creek chubs, Clinostomus dace, some Luxilus species) specialize on capturing allochthonous (out of system) food materials to supplement their diet with their aggressive behavior and/or large mouths, rather than relying solely on autochthonus (in system) food materials that begin with primary productivity (grazers that feed on algae). The Shelbyville riffle is interesting in this regard, as the cyprinid species found there are either striped shiners or chub species that have derived characteristics that make them more like a darter, rather than your typical shiner.
Anyway, take home message: historical trout streams are boring as hell.
The predators in the central TN systems were spotted bass and ol' goggle eyes... I'm not sure what role smallies played (I need to look at FoTN) but they're way not dominant now, nor do any of the above cross niches with these darter species. In east TN, I think it was just rock bass. The upper Mobile in TN, GA and AL has the corresponding shadow bass and coosa bass (redeye).
However, a hunting brown or rainbow doesn't have any problem going on a hunt. And mind you, the brookies in TN aren't anything like the mosters you see in the Great White North and etc. They're quite stunted. They have some monsters at the NC Hatchery outside Brevard in the upper French Broad, but I've never seen a brookie that was approaching a foot (and that was unusual, in spite of the stocking programs and paradox of eutrohpication compared to how the streams were as these communities evolved). The big fish are always the rainbows and browns.
Honestly, I don't know what the answers are. But stocking put and take trout in the Duck is just plain wrong. That is black and white to me.
Todd
#33
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Posted 24 February 2008 - 07:34 PM
I'm trying not to derail it further either and (I want to!) but I've got to stick to those moderatory (is that like "misremembered" ?) duties. I had an answer to Todd's predator influence of microptersu in TN in my lap...literally I had FoTN in my lap! But that should be something for a seperate thread on put and take exotics, diverse/imperiled native assemblages, ecological roles, etc. but we need to give back rtmjx his thread back.
#34
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Posted 28 February 2008 - 09:09 AM
I'm trying not to derail it further either and (I want to!) but I've got to stick to those moderatory (is that like "misremembered" ?) duties. I had an answer to Todd's predator influence of microptersu in TN in my lap...literally I had FoTN in my lap! But that should be something for a seperate thread on put and take exotics, diverse/imperiled native assemblages, ecological roles, etc. but we need to give back rtmjx his thread back.
Texas residents may voice their opinion online at http://www.tpwd.stat...proposals.phtml
#35
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Posted 29 March 2008 - 02:02 PM
Texas residents may voice their opinion online at http://www.tpwd.stat...proposals.phtml
The Motion was passed and in Sept there will Carp Slot limits at Lady Bird Lake Austin
#36
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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:17 PM
Damn... I've been so busy, I forgot that the date had come and gone. I went to the hearing in Austin, and guess what, no carp lovers showed up. There were maybe 15 people in the room-biologists, students, bow fishermen, and other fishermen-all against the proposal. I'm going to get transcripts and see what was said. This really irks me. The carp lobby was confident enough not to send a rep to the meeting in the city where the regulation was proposed. I call foul, but hey, that's democracy in action.
#37
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Posted 23 June 2008 - 06:38 AM
Considering the current composition of the waterways in Texas, I find it hard to get worked up about "natural" conditions here. Our only lakes of any substance (aside from Caddo) are Corps creations. The rivers are so far removed from their natural state as to make any complaints about the "natural" state of things meaningless, except to note that they essentially occupy the same geographical area they always have.
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