Hi all. Just letting you know that the NYSDEC is proposing the 2008-2010 fishing regulation changes. I have attached the website outlining the changes. One of the changes is a list of "allowable bait species".

This proposed bait list was the reason I began discussions with the NYSDEC in regards to the potential for the establishment of a collectors license for native fish hobbyists. I envisioned a license that would allow collection and keeping of species not on the list below. During these discussions the VHS train hit and all talks were ceased, as I was told it was likely that this would no longer be an option until they further understand the disease. Again, with the VHS regulations moving live, wild-caught fish overland in NYS is prohibited so it leaves the species list moot for those purposes. It does however limit the species individuals can capture and use for bait. From a native fish conservation perspective I see this as a great thing. The proposed regulation would prohibit using any darter for bait. The next step is to educate fisherman (and conservation officers) in fish identification.

-Scott

Scott Schlueter
Western NY
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http://www.dec.ny.go...ions/34113.html
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Part 19

USE OF BAIT AND BAIT FISH

Section 19.1 is amended to read as follows:

19.1 Definition of baits.

The definitions contained in this section shall apply to Chapter I (Fish and Wildlife) of this Title, involving the taking of fish from the waters of the state other than the marine and coastal district.

New sections 19.2 and 19.3 are added to read as follows:

19.2 Use of fish for bait in the waters of the State of New York.

(a) The following fish may be used as bait for fishing in the waters of the state, other than the marine and coastal distict, except as prohibited by Section 10.6 of part 10 of this chapter or any other provision of law or regulation :

(1) golden shiner (Notemigonus crysoleucas)

(2) emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)

(3) fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)

(4) bluntnose minnow (Pimephales notatus)

(5) spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)

(6) creek chub (Semotilus atromaculatus)

(7) white sucker (Catostomus commersonii)

( common shiner (Luxilus cornutus)

(9) blacknose dace (Rhinichthys atratulus)

(10) longnose dace (Rhinichthys cataractae)

(11) northern hogsucker (Hypentelium nigricans)

(12) fallfish (Semotilus corporalis)

(13) northern redbelly dace (Phoxinus eos)

(14) logperch (Percina caprodes)

(15) banded killifish (Fundulus diaphanus)

Here is the word document of the announcement. (not sure if I can do this, if blank- answer was no).  02_21_08_DEC_Announces_Proposed_Fishing_Regulations_for_2008_2010_0834.doc   35.5KB   64 downloads

I like that the list of allowable species for bait has been reduced. I'm a bit surprised that some species are on the list (NRBD and logperch) and others are not (sculpins; trout fishermen are gonna love that). I think a permit for fish collectors is a great idea. As it is I'll only be collecting and releasing. Unless something is done many of us New Yorkers might be out of the hobby. I know we make up a very small part of the population but we're still here all the same.

I stand corrected, they must have added logperch to the original list. I was only running on a few hours sleep when I sent that out and just cut/paste without reading fully.

Who can we contact to voice an opinion on this. As a license buying tax payer I feel I (we) should have a say in this. Why can't we be allowed to buy a collectors permit that allows us to fish for aquarium fish? They (DEC) are not even enforcing the current VHS regulations and they are making more! I have heard from more then one person that has been ice fishing this winter and when stopped by the DEC they were not even asked about their minnows or for the receipt for their minnows. I don't see where the state is making money off of these changes so why are they messing with it? Not a lot of people catch their own bait anymore anyway. They would make more selling us responsible citizens special licenses.

Sorry for ranting,
Herschel

Does this also effect the purchase of fish from commercial vendors? I ask this as given the way things are headed...I would not be surprised to see this sort of thing implemented in Michigan not that far down the road, and at that point commerical vendors may be my only option.
Although...our DNR is usually loath to rock the money boat..and fisherman are BIG money here...so who knows.

Does this also effect the purchase of fish from commercial vendors? I ask this as given the way things are headed...I would not be surprised to see this sort of thing implemented in Michigan not that far down the road, and at that point commerical vendors may be my only option.
Although...our DNR is usually loath to rock the money boat..and fisherman are BIG money here...so who knows.

I hope not. As it stands commercial vendors are my only source for natives. I might as well get tropicals. I'm kidding about that but seriously I might have to move out of the state.

Who can we contact to voice an opinion on this. As a license buying tax payer I feel I (we) should have a say in this. Why can't we be allowed to buy a collectors permit that allows us to fish for aquarium fish? They (DEC) are not even enforcing the current VHS regulations and they are making more! I have heard from more then one person that has been ice fishing this winter and when stopped by the DEC they were not even asked about their minnows or for the receipt for their minnows. I don't see where the state is making money off of these changes so why are they messing with it? Not a lot of people catch their own bait anymore anyway. They would make more selling us responsible citizens special licenses.

Sorry for ranting,
Herschel

Herschel,
I apologize for the delayed response; I have been out of town for a few weeks for work. Your concerns are founded and no need to apologize for ranting. The bottom line is the NYSDEC has a scientific collector’s license that they issue for individuals engaged in research. Those permits are issued out of Albany and in the review process are sent to the fish manager of the region you wish to work for their input. At the time I was in discussions with the NYSDEC, they were unsure what Albany's reaction would be to an application for a scientific collectors permit submitted by an individual (no academia/research affiliation) to collect fish for aquarium purposes. The biologists I was dealing with seemed to think it might get shot down in Albany and not even reach the fish manager in the region. Again, my thoughts were if we could establish a native fish hobbyist permit (special license) that had reasonable restriction on number in possession (to preclude commercial sales) that it would be good for the NYSDEC($$) and hobbyists. Like with all collectors’ permits, I envisioned the requirement of a year-end summary of harvest, including locations, submitted to the DEC. The folks on this forum are more knowledge about fish than most and would be able to provide valuable information to the DEC. But the VHS problem had stopped all discussions, as they feared any proposal would get shot down in Albany.

Again, pre-VHS collecting fish for aquariums in NYS was done through a gray area in the bait regulations. Now they are proposing changes to the species allowable to be used for bait. The bigger problem is really that ANY motorized overland transport of wild-caught (live) fish in NYS is illegal based on the current VHS regulations. So the proposed baitfish regs really only relate to species that an individual can catch while fishing for use as bait in the immediate area. They do not address the larger underlying issue that faces hobbyists in NY.

The reason the DEC is changing the baitfish regulations stems from the inclusive list of species that are on the old list, which include any darter that is not listed (state T&E). I agree with the state fully on the change to remove most darters from the bait list as I do not think we have a good handle on trends or population levels of darters in NYS. No, the DEC is not making any money on the proposed bait fish change but they are trying to protect our non-game fish populations. For that I give them a lot of credit and it should be of importance to a group like ours.

As to who to call, you could start by submitting comments on the fishing regulation change proposal. Comments are due by April 7. This is an avenue to get comments on the record but think it is a little misplaced for the bigger issue. I had suggested in the past (pre-VHS) that we get together as a group in NYS and discuss a letter to the DEC to outline our position, interests, and propose possible solutions (ie-native fish hobbyist permit). At that time, I had only one person state it was a good idea to have a meeting but I would still be interested in getting together to discuss this important topic with NY NANFA members. Would there be interest now from NY NANFA folks in having a meeting to discuss this? If so, we could throw some dates around and set something up. I have a camp in CNY (Cayuga County) on Cross Lake, we could use this as a central meeting point if anyone is interested. Let me know what you think. Unfortunately, until we get some changes in NY anyone collecting native fish (wild) and transporting them home for aquarium use is doing so illegally.

-Scott

Edited by sschluet, 25 March 2008 - 07:27 PM.

Does this also effect the purchase of fish from commercial vendors? I ask this as given the way things are headed...I would not be surprised to see this sort of thing implemented in Michigan not that far down the road, and at that point commerical vendors may be my only option.
Although...our DNR is usually loath to rock the money boat..and fisherman are BIG money here...so who knows.

Paul,
I don't know the answer to that. I would think that if you purchase a native species (native to your state) from a vendor out of state and retain the receipt for the specimens in your tanks, you would not have any problem. Obviously, the enforcement of all this is tricky and comes down to the officer you run into. I am willing to bet that some officers would still let you go if found streamside with some fish, but if you have the sort of luck that I do, your day could take a turn for the worse if you run into the wrong officer. I would imagine upon discovering a large fish room loaded with NY natives, that the NY conservation officer would be asking you a lot of questions.

Without a doubt, it is a sad position that we are left in.
-Scott

The bigger problem is really that ANY motorized overland transport of wild-caught (live) fish in NYS is illegal based on the current VHS regulations.

I agree with the state fully on the change to remove most darters from the bait list as I do not think we have a good handle on trends or population levels of darters in NYS.

For that I give them a lot of credit and it should be of importance to a group like ours.

I would still be interested in getting together to discuss this important topic with NY NANFA members. Would there be interest now from NY NANFA folks in having a meeting to discuss this? If so, we could throw some dates around and set something up. I have a camp in CNY (Cayuga County) on Cross Lake, we could use this as a central meeting point if anyone is interested. Let me know what you think. Unfortunately, until we get some changes in NY anyone collecting native fish (wild) and transporting them home for aquarium use is doing so illegally.

-Scott

I think 188.2 (f) gives us transportability:
188.2 Fish Health Inspections (f) A fish health inspection report shall not be required for fish placed into an aquarium or possessed for purposes of placing such fish into an aquarium.

But the limit of what constitutes baitfish is a huge concern since the taking of fish by nets is pretty much limited to baitfish species, any other fish can only be taken by angling. They should have a handle on trends and population levels. I give them little credit if they are making regulations based on not having the information they need to make reasonable decisions. Their job is not limited to protecting our resources but to provide us with management of those resources so that we the public can make reasonable use of those resources. Sometimes it seems these people believe they own these resources. A group such as ours should expect sound ,well documented, fact based decisions not possibly baseless encroachments on our rights.

Many darters are not hurting in our state, rainbows for example are still in an explosive range extension, bandeds are extending their range as well, greensides, tessellated, fantail, logperch and shield darters are not difficult to find either. The same goes for many other non-game fish not on the proposed baitfish list. Banning these fish is hardly something to applaud them for in my opinion.

I think we should definitely get together to discuss these things and plan some offensive tactics (not to offend but rather to have a voice).

Hey New Yorker's anybody send comments regarding these regulations yet? I'm unsure of exact date as I've seen April 4th and April 7th in different spots as the deadline. I did get an email comment sent off tonight but we really need as many as possible. I went from the availability of more site specific bait species as a benefit. I'd really like to continue to work on these issues and what Scott has been suggesting. See below:

Edited by keepnatives, 04 April 2008 - 12:08 AM.

<I think 188.2 (f) gives us transportability:
188.2 Fish Health Inspections (f) A fish health inspection report shall not be required for fish placed into an aquarium or possessed for purposes of placing such fish into an aquarium.>


Just to give any NY native collectors a heads up here’s an update regarding this thread:



1. Per the ECO that ticketed me Section 188.2 (f) has been removed.



2. Also a new law has been passed making the keeping of any NY native wildlife, including fish, as pets illegal.



3. The section on bait fish collected for personal use is indeed interpreted as to be used for bait, which along with no 2 above pretty much ends NY native fish keeping.



The ECO was quite professional and made great effort to verify whether I might have a pectoral spine to lean on. He did spend considerable time making calls to research what he could. But in the end I received a ticket for “taking fish other than allowed by law” which he explained was like a parking ticket. He did confide that the law was ill conceived and not well thought out. He set the court date to the last day of June and suggested attempting to get a collector’s permit which although he gave me the contact number and some encouragement I’m not confident of that happening. But I may as well give it shot I guess.



Seeing as my fish room was mostly stocked with non NY natives I decided to euthanize the NY natives to be on the safe side.



I did check on the DEC website and Section 188.2 (f) is still there but unfortunately almost every method of correspondence includes the disclaimer that it is not the final authority regarding the current laws but a summary for convenience.

Guess I'm out of the hobby.

This is awful and I feel terrible for the New Yorkers.

Yes, this is getting stupid, with Tennessee and now New York shutting down.

It's spreading.
NY gets the double whammy of being in the VHS belt, following the knee-jerk wave there, as well as being next to NJ where pretty much everything except development has been banned for awhile. You can't even use dip nets to catch bait.

Look to the herp community to see how far it's spreading. Not only are states banning all captive natives [not just imperiled] but they're investing big $ into sting operations to get people at the hobbyist level.
Granted native fish aren't as lucrative as herps and we don't have anything to compare to the big "Shows" where so many outlaw herpers are getting pinched, but the All Seeing Eye is coming our way.
Maine has repeatedly made headlines by busting Chinese restaurants with koi in the lounge. Is that effective use of law enforcement resources?

Just like the little kid with a garter snake from the backyard, alot of people will become outlaws, often without fully realizing it.

Man, that's a bummer. I was having a good day.

Brian

Mike I am sorry to hear that you received a ticket. Just so others are aware if you read the entire thread this is not a new issue and we have been under these laws for a few years. Along with this thread we discussed it in the New Yorkers Unite thread. As one of the NY NANFA Reps and a fish biologist by day, I have tried to convey the information as I understood it from discussions with NYSDEC biologists. I suggest interested folks read both threads. I think at a minimum the group should write a unified letter to let the NYSDEC to formally let them know the group exists. There are many NYSDEC biologists aware of NANFA and are supportive of the groups mission. I think the effort is warranted. Let me know what you think?

Mike I am sorry to hear that you received a ticket. Just so others are aware if you read the entire thread this is not a new issue and we have been under these laws for a few years. Along with this thread we discussed it in the New Yorkers Unite thread. As one of the NY NANFA Reps and a fish biologist by day, I have tried to convey the information as I understood it from discussions with NYSDEC biologists. I suggest interested folks read both threads. I think at a minimum the group should write a unified letter to let the NYSDEC to formally let them know the group exists. There are many NYSDEC biologists aware of NANFA and are supportive of the groups mission. I think the effort is warranted. Let me know what you think?

so as it stands is there anyway around this? or are Nyers just not allowed to do it anymore?

Again, with the VHS regulations moving live, wild-caught fish overland in NYS is prohibited so it leaves the species list moot for those purposes.

So it's only overland? So does that mean you could take a boat from southern Connecticut into the Hudson, sample fish, and bring them back to Connecticut and not break any laws as the fish never move overland in New York?