Hi everybody,
Right now, I'm an undergraduate student at Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, OH. In another year, I'll be graduating with my bachelor's in Biology (with an aquatic ecology focus). Immediately after that, I plan on attending graduate school to earn a Master's degree (and possibly a PHD, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there). I have a few schools in mind in my area in the Midwest, but I am also seriously considering a move to North Carolina. This northern weather is just unbearable at times, and I'm feeling like I'd rather live out in the North Carolina climate. With this being said, I'm looking for some information about graduate programs in North Carolina, more specifically anything near the east coast and/or Wilmington, NC. I would like the program offered to focus on Aquatic Ecology, and being that my work is almost exclusively freshwater, it would make sense for the program to not be marine in nature. I know that we have quite a few members here that live in this state, so I figured I could ask here because perhaps some of you have attended these universities and went through these programs.

Any help would be appreciated,
Nate Tessler

I haven't been through the programs on the North and South Carolina coasts, but I can give you a bit of information. The two most prominent schools in this area are UNC-Wilmington and the College of Charleston(my Alma Mater). They both have excellent graduate programs, but they are both primarily focused on marine environments. Your best bets for FW focused graduate studies in NC or SC are either NC State or Clemson. These schools are more focusued on agriculture and the environment and both have good fisheries programs in their grad schools.

I'll second what Dustin said about NC State and Clemson. Eastern Carolina has a very large, prominent, but marine fishery graduate program. Since I essentially was in your position 8 years ago I'll say two things. First, I hate Ohio winters also, but I wouldn't relagate your scope to one state because of the climate or even fauna. Think regionally because the lab group, advisor, and how comfortable you feel in it are essential. If your advisor is someone you cannot work with, regardless of how prominent they are, you will have a terrible graduate experience. Second, don't go unless you have a full assistantship. If you are a qualified candidate there is no reason why you shouldn't be funded, tuition waived, etc. If you don't find anything immediately and/or or aren't adequately funded take a job for a year somewhere, make some money, and build up experience. Over 75% of the people I was in school with two years ago had one-three years pre-grad school expierence and as well as alot of the people I met from other schools (primarily Co-op Units) at meetings. It's just that competitive.

Everything Matt and Dustin said is true. I would also suggest several other programs to look at given your interests, such as the University of Georgia (which runs a LTER in western NC), the U of Tennessee in Knoxville, and both Alabama and Auburn. The most brutal winter of the lot would be in Knoxville... they probably get some measurable snow accumulation most years. Definitely research various faculty whose lab you might work in. If someone's a dick you don't want to work for them.

Don't forget about the University of South Carolina. They have one of the best marine science programs in the country and have several faculty that are working with natives at the Savanah River Site.

If you want to go a little farther south and west, and are open to Texas, try Texas State in San Marcos. That's where I go now (and am working as a research assistant) and will be starting grad work in the Fall. We have a strong aquatic ecology program that covers the whole state, so you can get experience in desert, prairie, hill country, and eastern piney woods/low gradient streams, and everything else in between. You should look into it, we do lots of diverse field work, and it's in a great location. Here's a link if interested http://www.aquaticre....edu/index.html

If the northern clime's getting to you, I'll tell you that I've been working without waders (except for shocking) for a little over a month this year.

Edited by rjmtx, 22 March 2008 - 09:27 PM.

...Your best bets for FW focused graduate studies in NC or SC are either NC State or Clemson. These schools are more focusued on agriculture and the environment and both have good fisheries programs in their grad schools.

I do still have some time to think about this, and thanks to your recommendation, I've looked at NC State, coincidentally my girlfriend and I were considering Raleigh, NC to move to.

...I'll say two things. First, I hate Ohio winters also, but I wouldn't relagate your scope to one state because of the climate or even fauna. Think regionally because the lab group, advisor, and how comfortable you feel in it are essential. If your advisor is someone you cannot work with, regardless of how prominent they are, you will have a terrible graduate experience. Second, don't go unless you have a full assistantship. If you are a qualified candidate there is no reason why you shouldn't be funded, tuition waived, etc. If you don't find anything immediately and/or or aren't adequately funded take a job for a year somewhere, make some money, and build up experience. Over 75% of the people I was in school with two years ago had one-three years pre-grad school expierence and as well as alot of the people I met from other schools (primarily Co-op Units) at meetings. It's just that competitive.

I'm not considering the move because of the winters, I've been dealing with them forever...they just suck is all. But I have to consider options outside of my immediate proximity. I mean, Bowling Green State University, University of Toledo, or Ohio State University would be great options for me as far as I'm concerned, but there's no guarantee there yet. So, if I'm going to be applying to other places, I'm going to make it in an area that I'm considering living in. From visiting North Carolina a few times, I'm hooked!

...I would also suggest several other programs to look at given your interests, such as the University of Georgia (which runs a LTER in western NC), the U of Tennessee in Knoxville, and both Alabama and Auburn.

Right now, I'm mainly considering North Carolina schools, but I mean, who knows, thanks for the suggestions.

Don't forget about the University of South Carolina. They have one of the best marine science programs in the country and have several faculty that are working with natives at the Savanah River Site...

That book about the Fishes of The Savannah River did have me wanting to get out in that area...

If you want to go a little farther south and west, and are open to Texas, try Texas State in San Marcos...

Texas, I'm not too interested yet, but like I said, who knows for sure.

The climate and fauna are easy...

What you want to look for is an advisor, not a program, nor a school or anything BUT an advisor. You want to know WHO you are working with, and that you're going there to work with that person.

The second thing you want to do is know what kind of support they're offering. There's no reason with your experience to pay for tuition, you should have a stipend that is above $13,000 a year for a masters. Period. There's no reason whatsoever to live below that. For that, you could tolerate 2 more cold winters in Ohio, work in one of the labs I'm affilated with, doing work with fish and mussels all over the eastern United States, and get all that plus some... I think we're paying $15,000 for masters stipends next year, plus guaranteed summer support (about another $2500). In the meantime, you'd get plenty of networking in for the RIGHT PhD if you decide to continue.

That's just an example, I'm not trying to encourage you to look our way... I want you to go where YOU need to be But I also think that it's crap when people are expected to live on $6500 a year.

I'll poke around at some of my contacts in NC to see what's going on. Don't overlook Virginia. It's for lovers (of fish too )

And Georgia... UGA has a lot of cool people doing really cool things with Ecology that NEED a field savvy student. There are modellers everywhere that are just dying for a naturalist to walk through their door. So don't even limit your search to people who're working in Ichthyology. In fact, I suggest going the Ecology route. You can always use fish as your model system, but can't always find a program or agency that really cares how much you know about the taxonomy of fish.

That's my 2 cents...
Todd

I was going to add exactly what Todd just closed with so instead I will stongly reaffirm it. There are alot of aquatic/fish ecologists, but their projects are often set or within a specific context. Using fish as the model within the broader frame works just the same and you may have a little more freedom with your research.

Since we're rattling off schools I will jump in for the hell of it. Any co-operative fishery unit. Well funded, well staffed, well equiped. Enough said. Some other, more specifics, that were on my radar at one point or I know/met people at - Purdue, UMO @ Columbia, Auburn, UMD, WKU and WVU.

Hey I survived (and actually left with a little more than when I came) on 12,000!

NC State is your best bet for the things you are interested in and Wayne Starnes from the Museum is an adjunct professor. Tom Kwak, Joe Hightower and Jim Rice are some of the faculty there and all great people. The WRC has been fuinding some nongame studies such as the Carolina madtom work that was presented at last years meeting.

...and I believe some redhorse projects in cooperation with Steve Frahley in Western NC.

The UGA Warnell School of Forestry also has some good fish people, so don't overlook them. People (potential advisors)at UGA that I can think of off the top of my head for aquatic/fish stuff are:

Gene Helfman
Bud Freeman
Judy Meyer
Amy Rosemond
Gary Grossman

Look around the ecology and forestry websites - there will certainly be others that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Todd is right - the critical thing is to find an advisor that you would like to work with. They will be the people who sponsor you for admission. Then, look at the facilities the school has - dedicated study sites or LTERs, specialized labs, etc. If you can't find a good advisor with good facilities, then look elsewhere.

Regarding stipends - you will finish school a lot earlier if you can get research assistantships instead of teaching assistantships. Even if your advisor's work does take up the same amount of time as teaching would, it is at least related to your field. That said, be sure to teach for a couple semesters - it will give you experience in front of crowds and in communicating ideas effectively.

You want to know WHO you are working with, and that you're going there to work with that person.

....In the meantime, you'd get plenty of networking in for the RIGHT PhD if you decide to continue.

That's just an example, I'm not trying to encourage you to look our way... I want you to go where YOU need to be But I also think that it's crap when people are expected to live on $6500 a year.

I'll poke around at some of my contacts in NC to see what's going on. Don't overlook Virginia. It's for lovers (of fish too )

And Georgia... UGA has a lot of cool people doing really cool things with Ecology that NEED a field savvy student. There are modellers everywhere that are just dying for a naturalist to walk through their door. So don't even limit your search to people who're working in Ichthyology. In fact, I suggest going the Ecology route. You can always use fish as your model system, but can't always find a program or agency that really cares how much you know about the taxonomy of fish...

That's why I ask questions like this here, people on this forum and in this organization have been through these things and can offer great advice. Problem is, in order to be able to better decide which program (professor) would work for me, I have to go around visiting quite a few. As a matter of fact, I'd like to visit with your professor (adviser) sometime, Todd. I may have reasons on the side for taking interest in North Carolina as well. The girl that I'm going steady with now wants to teach in North Carolina and I'm in no way glued to one region or another.
The ecology standpoint is something I've not considered much. I know that limiting myself to an Ichthyology or even an Aquatic Ecology program can be detrimental to my search. Ecology is something that I can probably find much more readily and like you said, use fish as my model system. Thanks for that input, gave me a little different outlook.

...There are alot of aquatic/fish ecologists, but their projects are often set or within a specific context. Using fish as the model within the broader frame works just the same and you may have a little more freedom with your research.

Since we're rattling off schools I will jump in for the hell of it. Any co-operative fishery unit. Well funded, well staffed, well equiped. Enough said. Some other, more specifics, that were on my radar at one point or I know/met people at - Purdue, UMO @ Columbia, Auburn, UMD, WKU and WVU...

I like the idea of having more freedom in research options, who wouldn't. The list of schools keeps building. It seems like it just depends on who you ask.

NC State is your best bet for the things you are interested in and Wayne Starnes from the Museum is an adjunct professor. Tom Kwak, Joe Hightower and Jim Rice are some of the faculty there and all great people. The WRC has been fuinding some nongame studies such as the Carolina madtom work that was presented at last years meeting.

NC State is one I'm definitely going to look more into.

The UGA Warnell School of Forestry also has some good fish people, so don't overlook them.

Todd is right - the critical thing is to find an advisor that you would like to work with. They will be the people who sponsor you for admission. Then, look at the facilities the school has - dedicated study sites or LTERs, specialized labs, etc. If you can't find a good advisor with good facilities, then look elsewhere.

Regarding stipends - you will finish school a lot earlier if you can get research assistantships instead of teaching assistantships. Even if your advisor's work does take up the same amount of time as teaching would, it is at least related to your field. That said, be sure to teach for a couple semesters - it will give you experience in front of crowds and in communicating ideas effectively.

Which would you consider to be a better situation, a great adviser with poor facilities or an average adviser with great facilities? Stipends are a big deal. I don't know that off the bat I'm even going to be considering stipends that are not research assistantships. Perhaps, I should not consider anything but research assistantships ever.

Which would you consider to be a better situation, a great adviser with poor facilities or an average adviser with great facilities?

I think it depends on what you plan to experiment with. A great advisor with poor facilities can work out great if you don't really need much in the way of facilities. If your work would require a lot of laboratory work, then an average advisor with great facilities might be better.

However, these two things are rarely separated. If you find a great advisor that does a lot of work in the subject you are interested in, more likely than not they will have the facilities readily available to do the work. If not, they wouldn't have accomplished much in that field. I don't think you'll really have to make a choice between the two.

Really, the way to start your search is to go on the web pages of different departments. Each faculty member will have their own web page from there. It will talk about the work they do and their past work, and will list publications. Look these over, read a few publications, and you will likely find someone who is doing stuff that truly inspires you. Then give them a call. Tell them what you are interested in. Ask questions. If it then seems appropriate, go for a visit. But remember, you are visiting the faculty member much more so than the school. Finding the faculty member that you can work with and that wants you to come is THE KEY to getting into grad school.

Allow me to add a slightly contrarian view to the whole subject of going to graduate school. If you hold out for a total research assistant package you may wait a while. Don't undervalue being a teaching assistant in any lab sections. It's the best way to (really) learn basic biology, and even better, to put all of the different strands together in one whole. I supervise the intro labs at my school, and it always amazes me that most of our graduate students know nearly nothing about plants. Since my Biology 2 class spends three weeks on plants, they have to learn what I always think is basic biology in order to teach the labs. Sure, this takes more time and you might not graduate in 1.5 years, but you'll actually be an organismal biologist rather than just another reductionist.

I totally agree with Bruce. I feel strongly that you don't KNOW a topic until you can communicate it to someone else in a way that's meaningful to THEM (if they care, of course). What's that tell you about some of your lecturers at big research universities?

Don't overlook TA's as a viable way to pay for your schooling, esp for a masters. At this point, you've only been trained to read. The masters will teach you how to think, and teaching is a good way to force yourself to do that.

The best way, in my opinion, of going about a masters is 2 or 3 semesters of TA, 1 or 2 semesters of RA and both or all 3 of your summers paid by RA. But this is pie in the sky, there are many roads.

You're ahead of the curve (as is Long Hair Phil) in that your quest, so it may be possible that it works out this way.

Anytime you want to talk to Hans (who has RA money for the next 5 summers to study Honey Creek ) or Jon let me know. I'll be glad to get you all connected (I head the committee for visiting students). Will make for some good practice at what questions to ask too when you're investing more money in your search due to travel.

The work you probably want to do isn't going to invlove state of the art labs. In fact, my masters project was popular BECAUSE it was so ghetto. It cost something like $500 for some probes, $60 for some seines and the rest was gravy. Very easy to find funding if you have a good applied angle to your science and keep the costs down.

What will hinder you in a masters is if you have an advisor who continually changes what they want you to write in your thesis (bordering on co-dependence), is absent or too laid back, is a micro-micromanager, etc. You can find this out by asking what their average time to graduation, ratio of incoming students to actual graduates, etc is.

Bad labs have people who disappear, high numbers of students with low graduation rates, publications with no teeth (like they're draw a line through ANY cluster of data and find an R2 and get it published), etc etc. If you want to see some bad labs, I can have you interview with a couple of those here too, and you can see how nuanced it is. I can show you both "sweat shop ecology" and the co-dependent micro-micromanager (did I say that out loud?

Todd

Agreed. My research project didn't cost a whole lot in terms of lab facilities. BUT, I used a greenhouse for 2 years, and could have never done any of the work without the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory and it's relationship with the Savannah River Site. Gave me my study sites that were guaranteed not to be disturbed or markers removed while I was working on them, as well as having not been disturbed for about 50 years. Don't forget to count potential research locations as facilities. Work can certainly be done in non-controlled areas, but it sure makes it a lot easier if something is already established for scientific use.

You worked at SREL? Very nice. Too bad about its recent changes.

You worked at SREL? Very nice. Too bad about its recent changes.

Yes, it is very, very dissapointing.

For those interested, you can read more here:
A Memo About the Future of SREL - from the SREL facility
Save the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory - "Friends of SREL" website

UGA already HAD a School of Ecology - Dr. Odum was Professor emeritus thereof. WTF?