"One Man's Pet, Another's Invasive Species"

http://www.washingto...ml?hpid=topnews

Thought this was an interesting article. I'm not a herp guy and never will be but this article could easily have been written about fishes.

Wow.

I would have hoped that Florida's reptile dealers had wised up by now; besides the big spectacular species like pythons, monitors, caimans, and green iguanas, there are dozens of small lizards and frogs established in Florida, largely due to the practice of pet stores releasing slow-selling or unhealthy stock. A lot of them are also pet-owner releases and freight stowaways from the Carribbean. Many of these small species are displacing ecologically similar natives; even green anoles and green treefrogs are becoming uncommon in parts of south Florida.

It's idiots like that who will end up getting many species banned from the pet trade. Soon it may be cats, dogs, or nothing.

The guy sells cobras? Great. That's all we need. Feral cobras.

Ha! If you ask most of the country folk around here, they'll swear up and down that there are cobras loose in the woods already. Of course, it's hognose snakes they're seeing (and no doubt despatching).

Karl, shouldn't you be working, not viewing this thread....NPR had a segment about gardening and invasives yesterday actually, specifically about purple loosetrife still being sold (somehow).

Purple loosestrife isn't a federally-listed noxious weed (unfortunately). Even if it were, it could still be sold in states that do not specifically bank it so long as it doesn't cross state lines. States can ban it individually, though. But not all do.

The federal noxious weed list is woefully incomplete in my opinion. One can read the guidelines for listing species here: http://www.aphis.usd...istingguide.pdf. A lot of very, very damaging pests are not on this list. It's amazing to me that we spend soooo much money on the control of these plants and their sale isn't further regulated.

Of the pythons, [MacInnes] said: "To me, it's a wonderful introduction. I think it's the best thing to happen to the Everglades in the last 200 years."

What we have here is a bad case ecological vigilanteism.

Well, the guy didn't say that he did it himself, but it's easy to see how someone with that opinion might.

Well, the guy didn't say that he did it himself, but it's easy to see how someone with that opinion might.

He's not likely to admit to a crime in an interview - but considering his position on exotic introductions, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he was dumping inventory that was no longer worth the expense of maintaining. While he claims that the term invasive species is too loaded, he is clearly comfortable assessing the relative value of exotic and native herps, i.e. exotics are in demand and profitable, natives aren't.

Large scale importers are a crucial link the the economic chain that leads to pet releases. Nobody is dumping any high-dollar captive bred exotics, but these mass-imported, herp-show-distributed, discount-impulse-buy green iguanas and ball pythons are pretty much just going to the buyer's house as a hold over between the importer and the trash can or roadside ditch.

MacInnes contends that the government overestimates the threat posed by invasive reptiles. He says he's being blocked by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service from importing some commercially attractive animals, such as Fiji island iguanas and radiated tortoises from Madagascar.

That is because they are CITES Schedule 1 Endangered species and ESA listed..... DUH..... What does this have to do with Invasive species? And I'm sure he is aware one of his buddies in crime (Strictly reptiles) went to jail for smuggling them.

I'd honestly take this whole article with a grain of salt as it clearly is written in the typical Mass media manner.. With the current push, by a very few, to list Pythons and Boas under the Lacey act it seems a lot of these "scary snake" articles are being published. Few of them are being responsible in their journalism..

Not discounting the above by Mette though, as he is right on the money in the above post.....

Large scale importers are a crucial link the the economic chain that leads to pet releases. Nobody is dumping any high-dollar captive bred exotics, but these mass-imported, herp-show-distributed, discount-impulse-buy green iguanas and ball pythons are pretty much just going to the buyer's house as a hold over between the importer and the trash can or roadside ditch.

You nailed it perfectly! That's it in a nut shell and could be applied equally as well to the tropical fish trade.

FWIW, I thought the article was much more balanced and less sensationalist than most pieces that appeared in the press after the USGS map came out. That map and the crazy press reports it inspired generated a sht storm in the herper community.
I found the statements made by the individual in the Post article very interesting in light of the fact that there has long been speculation about what role wholesalers have played in the invasive species disaster in Fl. That particular wholesaler has been around for many years and is well known for trading in all sorts of wild caught herps. A local source for an animal normally imported at great expense would be very lucritive to an outfit like that.

A local source for an animal normally imported at great expense would be very lucritive to an outfit like that.

That particular motivation for intentional releases probably is a factor (there's speculation that lionfish on the Outer Banks of NC may have been released by dive operators), but I don't think it's a major one.

The problem with this theory is directly related to the other problems with importation of exotic animals, namely the inverse relationship between availability and demand. The trade in exotics tends to be driven by a desire to collect rare species, like the Appendix 1 herps mentioned above. If the Glades Herp folks were to successfully import and establish Fijian Iguanas in the Everglades, and they became common in the trade as a result, the price AND demand would likely bottom out. For those species that are widely available due to domestic introductions (like Cuban Tree Frogs), the profit margin is pretty thin.

I'm more concerned by this guy's general attitude towards releasing exotics, which I suspect to be more or less prevalent among hobbyists. In the eyes of many folks, folks with easy access to potentially invasive species (like Purple Loosestrife), releases are no big deal. The suggestion that government bureaucrats are holding up imports due to an irrational fear of invasiveness propagated by alarmist scientists is a phony baloney straw-man that aims to throw the debate away from two very real problems with the exotic pet trade: the unsustainable harvest of endangered species abroad and the establishment of noxious exotics at home.

Edited by mette, 21 April 2008 - 11:13 AM.

And of course the most vocal group proposing "solutions" to these problems is PETA, which wants to eliminate the practice of keeping animals in captivity altogether. It's very frustrating.

I'm sure an exam-based licensing process for all prospective pet-keepers, as well as importers, propagators, distributors, etc., would go over like a lead balloon, but I still think it's a good idea. People need to be a little more educated before they can get their hands on any animals. No doubt some people are going to have knee-jerk "Big Brother" reactions, but really, what are the alternatives? The situation as it is is untenable; I believe it will soon become a choice between a regulated hobby and an outlawed hobby.

My computer is slow and won't down load the article, but I'm guessing I'm familiar with the topic. It is my understanding that snakes are the number one "pet" "forgotten" by tenants evicted by landlords, most of them exotic and frequently lethal.

I love herps (... hence the name Mander... Sally..Mander... get it?) but I never, never, want to be considered part of the snake crowd. I would say that of the dozens of "snake people" I've met over the years, only the rare few wasn't in need of some serious therapy. Scary.

I don't know that expense or lack of money, is that much of a factor with snakes whether it is obtaining them or releasing them. Not all, but most of the snake people I have meet get their money either from the government, from illegal means, or both. I have known far too many people who didn't have money for diapers for their infant, but they had money for a new snake. I try to have an open mind on the topic, but it gets more difficult with each snake person I meet.

I think the dumping of snakes is a mixture of anti-socialism... I'll show you you can't tell me what to do.... , the idea that releasing the snake out into the environment is a beautiful thing to do (so why wasn't leaving it in the wild in the first place a great thing to do?) and part.... what do you do with a snake when your amusement has run its course?

There are some reptile rescue places, but they are few and far between and the fact is, they get over loaded within weeks of opening.

When animals reproduce in the wild, nature over produces because it plans on a certain number of the population to be eaten and or die of accidents and disease. When was the last time someone gave snakes birth control pills? The pet industry creates a very unnatural population boom.

And sad to say, Newt, I think you're right. If pet owners don't take the initiative, push is going to come to shove and pets will be regulated to the max or completely out lawed.

Maybe I should start a "Native Fish" Rescue center! Anybody want to dump their fish on me?????

Maybe I should start a "Native Fish" Rescue center! Anybody want to dump their fish on me?????

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. How many 2-foot channel cats could any one person handle?

I could handle about 3 a week.

That reminds me, I need to stock up on cornmeal.

Seriously, I haven't had such a negative experience with "snake people" as you have, Mander, but these irresponsible people are of course out there. This, combined with the ludicrously bad journalism that comes into play any time animals or biology are involved, the susceptibility of many good-intentioned people to said bad journalism, and the political tendency to grease the wheel that squeaks loudest, really puts regular, responsible folks with an interest in keeping animals in a real pinch.

I could handle about 3 a week.

I'm guessing that's your stomach talking?

Yes, the bad apples have a way of spoiling it for the rest. I'm glad you know decent snake people. I wish my ratio of decent to scary was higher than it is, for the snakes benefits if not for mine.

May I assume you are into salamanders, too? May I write you with questions?

Thanks!

Mander

Yeah, I'm a salamander fan. You're welcome to ask me any question you like, but I can't promise I know the answers!

The problem with this theory is directly related to the other problems with importation of exotic animals, namely the inverse relationship between availability and demand. The trade in exotics tends to be driven by a desire to collect rare species, like the Appendix 1 herps mentioned above. If the Glades Herp folks were to successfully import and establish Fijian Iguanas in the Everglades, and they became common in the trade as a result, the price AND demand would likely bottom out. For those species that are widely available due to domestic introductions (like Cuban Tree Frogs), the profit margin is pretty thin.

That is true to a point but still the economics often come out in favor of the unscrupulous collector.
Cuban brown anoles are common as house flies in Florida but try to find a single big box pet store that doesn't have a tank full at $6.99 a pop. They are effortless to collect [I've heard of 100 a night for one collector] and so unbelievably numerous that even if the wholesalers have 75% mortality, they still turn a profit. That would obviously not be true if they were being imported.
Another consideration is the possibility that the plan doesn't always work out as intended. For example IF burmese pythons were intentionally released years ago, when they were a trade staple imported at great expense, the culprits might not have forseen that herptoculturists would become so successful at breeding them in captivity. Now that burms are common as kingsnakes in the trade, all those reproducing in the Everglades are worthless.
Jackson chameleons are suspected of being intentionally released in Hawaii, and what the the state was hoping to avoid when they outlawed EXPORT of exotic animals.