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poecilia latipinna sailfin development


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#1 Guest_rick_*

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 06:14 PM

Just finished reading an interesting article in the most recent American Livebearer Association journal (Livebearers) primarily about Poecilia vellifera in the aquarium hobby. One of the things discussed in this article was that it seems (in general) to be easier to raise large vellifera with big, showy sailfins than it is to raise big, showy latipinna. I have bred and raised a few wild-type latipinna, but don't recall ever getting any males with large, showy dorsals like those collected from the wild. Was just wondering what other peoples experience along these lines has been.

Rick

#2 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:24 PM

Oh, you're touching on a topic that is very much at the front of my mind at the moment.
I was recently reading [re-re-re-reading] Innes, where he states "...it is seldom possible to produce sail-fin young from sail-fin stock."
Also ruminating over comments seen here about the role of salt in the color and size of the sail in P. latipinna.
I'm formulating my own theory about this. Innes touched on part of it when he followed the above statement with the observation that growing a big sail "...requires two years' growth."
What I'm observing is that the overall size and coloration of the male and his sail is somehow tied to sex ratio and overall condition of the colony, habitat and food supply.
Briefly, my colony started with what I thought was a trio [one male, two females] but actually was a small, inferior male [luck of the draw, dipnetting], a healthy female and a sleeper male which snuck in disguised as a female.
Once the conditions were favorable, the sleeper male revealed his true identity, disposed of the weaker male and dominated the colony for close to two years. During that time, second and third generation males did not manifest male characteristics [no sail, color or gonopodium].
About six weeks ago, the original male died. Immediately, all the repressed males in the colony got an influx of testoserone. I now have at least three large prime males with huge, bold, colorful sails and half a dozen lesser males showing color and sails at sizes as small as 2 inches.
I went from a colony of one functional male, several fertile females and a bunch of nonreproductive eunichs to a red hot swingers bash where the ripe females are being chased relentlessly by four or five flashing males at a time.
I'm waiing for some of the males to finish coloring up to take some pics and make a post....

#3 Guest_rick_*

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 10:39 AM

Oh, you're touching on a topic that is very much at the front of my mind at the moment.
I was recently reading [re-re-re-reading] Innes, where he states "...it is seldom possible to produce sail-fin young from sail-fin stock."
Also ruminating over comments seen here about the role of salt in the color and size of the sail in P. latipinna.
I'm formulating my own theory about this. Innes touched on part of it when he followed the above statement with the observation that growing a big sail "...requires two years' growth."
What I'm observing is that the overall size and coloration of the male and his sail is somehow tied to sex ratio and overall condition of the colony, habitat and food supply.
Briefly, my colony started with what I thought was a trio [one male, two females] but actually was a small, inferior male [luck of the draw, dipnetting], a healthy female and a sleeper male which snuck in disguised as a female.
Once the conditions were favorable, the sleeper male revealed his true identity, disposed of the weaker male and dominated the colony for close to two years. During that time, second and third generation males did not manifest male characteristics [no sail, color or gonopodium].
About six weeks ago, the original male died. Immediately, all the repressed males in the colony got an influx of testoserone. I now have at least three large prime males with huge, bold, colorful sails and half a dozen lesser males showing color and sails at sizes as small as 2 inches.
I went from a colony of one functional male, several fertile females and a bunch of nonreproductive eunichs to a red hot swingers bash where the ripe females are being chased relentlessly by four or five flashing males at a time.
I'm waiing for some of the males to finish coloring up to take some pics and make a post....


Fascinating, Mike. I have seen this sort of thing to a lesser degree in X. helleri swordtails. I had a bunch of fry I negelected in a 30 gal basement tank one year. Left them in a virtually unheated basement all winter with temps probably in the mid 60's much of the time. At close to a year old all looked like big, bulky beautiful female green swordtails. As the temps warmed up and I started feeding them more suddenly a few of the big females developed gonopodia and sprouted huge long swords. Best looking bunch of swordtails I ever raised.

You really need to get a copy of the latest Livebearers and read that molly article. The author saw the same sort of small, early maturing males in his vellifera stock, which he was able to eliminate over time by culling these fish. He also suggested that in order to get the best development in terms of large fish with massive dorsals he needed to do massive frequent water changes...as much as 80% two or three times per week, primarily due to such heavy feeding. Do you find you need this sort of intensive care for your latipinna? Also, the article suggested that big fish, with massive dorsal development was easier to obtain in vellifera based stock than with latipinna. Looking forward to seeing your photo post.

By the way, it seems to me (at least in my area) that the quality of Sailfin Mollies (probably mostly of Asian origin with a lot of vellifera characteristic) has declined in the past year of two. Sometime around the late 90's I saw giant (5 to 6 inches), albino and green sailfins in about every shop I went into. Now what I see are much smaller fish, more like latipinna and mostly lyretail strains. As a molly aficianado, have you noticed this?

Rick

#4 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 11:18 AM

Do you find you need this sort of intensive care for your latipinna?


No, I'm very lax with water changes. My mollie tank has no bio-filter, only lots of plants and even more algae. The mollies graze on algae all day and I give them blood worms, brine shrimp etc almost every day.


By the way, it seems to me (at least in my area) that the quality of Sailfin Mollies (probably mostly of Asian origin with a lot of vellifera characteristic) has declined in the past year of two. Sometime around the late 90's I saw giant (5 to 6 inches), albino and green sailfins in about every shop I went into. Now what I see are much smaller fish, more like latipinna and mostly lyretail strains. As a molly aficianado, have you noticed this?

Rick


Yes, pet store mollies are horrible. Mixed blood, poor condition, not worth the money. I worked the retail trade for awhile and came to the conclusion that the wholesalers/breeders [Asian?] had ruined P. latipinna as a viable pet store staple. The fact that they are misunderstood and kept in the wrong conditions doesn't help. The best pet store mollies I ever saw were being sold for tank cycling in a reef oriented, saltwater only specialty shop. They were obviously from wild stock, acclimated to full salt and did real well in the large, high temp reef tanks grazing algae off uncured live rock. When the tanks cycled, the mollies got sent off to a spare freshwater tank kept at 72 F and fed flake. Nobody ever seemed to catch on about why the mollies thrived in the harsh salt tank cycling environment but failed when kept in more conventional setups.
Mine are from wild stock from southwest Florida, from a remote enough [saltwater] location to allow me to presume no dilution of pure wild genes.
My big problem now is getting back to Fl to get some genetic diversity for my bloodlines. I'd really like to get some melanistic too/

#5 Guest_rick_*

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 12:08 PM

Mine are from wild stock from southwest Florida, from a remote enough [saltwater] location to allow me to presume no dilution of pure wild genes.
My big problem now is getting back to Fl to get some genetic diversity for my bloodlines. I'd really like to get some melanistic too/


From what I can gather, those fish from that part of Florida are particularly large and beautiful. I see wild caught mollies up for sale on aquabid. Have you seen those and what do you think?

Rick

#6 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 08:43 PM

From what I can gather, those fish from that part of Florida are particularly large and beautiful. I see wild caught mollies up for sale on aquabid. Have you seen those and what do you think?

Rick


I'm not familiar with aquabid. Not real keen on the ebay type of sites.

#7 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 09:21 PM

IIRC, a fellow named Mark Barnett developed Aquabid for NANFA's use/benefit. My memory may be playing tricks on me - that was a long time ago. It has since taken on a life of its own.

#8 Guest_rick_*

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 06:45 AM

IIRC, a fellow named Mark Barnett developed Aquabid for NANFA's use/benefit. My memory may be playing tricks on me - that was a long time ago. It has since taken on a life of its own.


Very interesting. I had no idea. I'm guessing we no longer have any type of partnership with that, at least I don't recall ever seeing that mentioned. I have bought a couple of things off of the site. I would try to give my business to one of our people first, but that's not always possible. All of the fish I have purchased from anyone in our vendor listings have always been top notch.

Rick

#9 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 10:04 AM

Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying anything neagtive about that site specifically.
I had good luck when ebay first came out, buying used camera gear [always a crapshoot].
Once buying and selling on ebay became a business unto itself, my experience declined to where I now avoid that mode of business all together.
I'm sure aquabid is ok.

#10 Guest_Mysteryman_*

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 01:37 PM

Barnett still runs Aquabid, and it is a very active site. The members are not just users, but an online community unto themselves, very unlike ebay.

The only downside is that Barnett allows the bad guys to simply change their names when they get caught and start over for no apparent reason despite much protest. Very annoying. Luckily the bad guys are very rare, and the good guys are among the best. I love AB, and without it I'm sure a lot of hobbyists would have a lot of major problems in getting good stuff.

Oh, to get back on topic, this is very interesting stuff regarding sail development. Now if we can just somehow trick the males into developing on demand...

Edited by Mysteryman, 05 May 2008 - 01:38 PM.


#11 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 03:18 PM

Hi Rick. I wrote on this topic for the December 2003 TFH. I had worked with sailfins for a long time. Essentially, the big showy fins sails in both species is thought to be linked to a number of genes on the X chromosome. Males mature along a continuum, with tiny 1/4 inch males with no sail to speak of on one end, and big flashy males with huge sails on the other. These big males are infrequent and hard to come by.

Joel Trexler, a researchers with Florida International University, has studied the species extensively. http://www.fiu.edu/~trexlerj/

Basically, the idea is to start with really good stock--big flashy males, and unpregnant females--tough to come by, unless you raise them yourself in the absence of males, as the females store sperm from previous matings.

To grow big, they require high pH, hard water and are sensitive to poor water conditions. Plus, they really need to eat a lot. They also need a small amount of sodium in the water, and the hardness should come from a calcium salt. In his studies, Trexler found that they did best at a half teaspoon of sodium per gallon. He was working with latipinna. I was working with Velifera, and I found they needed a teaspoon per gallon. However, Trexler was working with Miami tap water, which has more dissolved calcium than my suburban D.C. tapwater. To some degree, calcium can substitute for sodium with these species. If you have a lot of calcium hardness in your tap, you may not even need any sodium.

The large males appear to be females until very late in their development, when, over the course of a couple of months, they suddenly develop a gonopodium, bright colors, and a large fin.

However, there's no guarantee that having met all these conditions, tiny 1/4 males still won't show up in subsequent broods. I gave up on them after working with them for more than ten years, after the most recent generation failed to yield even a single large male, and the smale 1/4 males showing up again after having been missing for several generations.

Good luck with them.



Just finished reading an interesting article in the most recent American Livebearer Association journal (Livebearers) primarily about Poecilia vellifera in the aquarium hobby. One of the things discussed in this article was that it seems (in general) to be easier to raise large vellifera with big, showy sailfins than it is to raise big, showy latipinna. I have bred and raised a few wild-type latipinna, but don't recall ever getting any males with large, showy dorsals like those collected from the wild. Was just wondering what other peoples experience along these lines has been.

Rick



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Posted 05 May 2008 - 11:20 PM

What is the low temperature tolerance for P. latipinia? I have some in a tank outdoors, heated somewhat. They are supposed to be wild caught from Louisiana and Florida. I wonder how much cold they could take, if I could keep them in an outdoor pond. I'm in So. Cal., not too cold here.

#13 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 07:29 AM

However, there's no guarantee that having met all these conditions, tiny 1/4 males still won't show up in subsequent broods. I gave up on them after working with them for more than ten years, after the most recent generation failed to yield even a single large male, and the smale 1/4 males showing up again after having been missing for several generations.

Good luck with them.



Bob, did you keep any notes or make any observations on variables such as sex ratio, size of colony, food supply, colony general health, water quality etc?
I get an intuition that X chromosome is only part of the picture.
When my "trio" were first introduced to captivity, it was to a 20 gallon tank which was almost certainly too small. At that stage, the small inferior male successfully mated with the one true female [she was immature and not gravid at capture] and the sleeper male was the recipient of much aggression from both the inferior male and the true female.
I believed they were attempting to drive it out of their very small territory.
Once the three adults and small group of fry were moved to a bigger tank, the sleeper male had an immediate growth spurt followed by manifestation of male characteristics, all WITHIN TWO WEEKS of being moved to the bigger tank.
My impression was that the sleeper male transformed in response to the more favorable environmental conditions in the larger tank.
Soon after transformation into a large, colorful, huge sailed male, the sleeper killed the inferior male with relentless aggression.
Thus began the reign of that dominent male over the colony as related here: http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=3601

During the time that this wild caught sleeper male ruled the colony, no male attributes were ever shown by any offspring although several were obviously male [slimmer profile, slight color, never courted by the dominent male]. The one male I called "The KING" had sole rights to reproduce and grow the colony. At this point there was lots of room, plenty of food and the one male kept all the females gravid and the colony grew to the max size for the tank [a 90 gallon I THINK].
Things stayed stable for over a year at this point.
Then the King died.
Apparently being the only stud for a whole harem of ripe females takes a toll on the longevity of the male. I watched him decline and show obvious old age-like conditions and correctly predicted his death with a couple of weeks.
Once he died, a testosterone outburst occured.
Now the colony is maxed out for space and food supply and unchecked reproduction would be detrimental to long term success.
At the same time, I have several males of all different sizes showing color and sails and the ripe females are being courted by four or five males at a time.
As I see it, population control has turned from quantity to quality. Instead of one male making the max number of offspring, I have only the most successsful males producing a small number of offspring so as to not over tax the food supply or over populate the colony.

Edited by mikez, 06 May 2008 - 07:35 AM.


#14 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 07:52 AM

There's a whole scientific literature on the phenomenon of secondary males, or even females, going through a sudden transformation to alpha male status. It's usually tied to a change in social structure, and individuals can apparently see and sense this change of hierarchy related to deaths or population influx. The exact pathway of this change ("signal transduction") is still poorly understood, i.e. exactly what part of the brain initiates signals that result in the quick production and release of the potent male steroid 11-ketotestosterone (11-KT) which is what stimulates all of the physical and behavioral changes. Regular testosterone, T, has little to do with this in teleosts. Females often have higher levels of T than males, because T can be enzymatically converted to various forms of estrogen. One reason that 11-KT is so potent is that it's not easily converted back to T, so male fishes have enzyme machinery to produce 11-KT from T while females (real females) lack this ability and instead produce estrogens.

I've never read any of Trexler's work, but I should. My lab group has been working on 11-KT levels in scarlet shiners, and we've found that alpha males have up to 200 times the 11-KT level of secondary males and females. Considering that 11-KT is ~200 times more potent than T, that's a very strong amplifier for male traits such as size, color and behavior. I would guess that alpha male mollies would have a similar level of 11-KT compared to others.

#15 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:24 AM

This stuff is so cool!
My fishin buddies were laughing at me on the way home from our snook fishing trip because I had a 1 liter soda bottle in my carry on luggage with three little fishies swimmin in it. :twisted:
Who knew those 3 little fishies would be the start of such a cool project? :tongue:

#16 Guest_rick_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:44 AM

What is the low temperature tolerance for P. latipinia? I have some in a tank outdoors, heated somewhat. They are supposed to be wild caught from Louisiana and Florida. I wonder how much cold they could take, if I could keep them in an outdoor pond. I'm in So. Cal., not too cold here.


Not sure about temp tolerance. I do know that I used to catch them around Savannah, GA, where it wasn't uncommon to have winter temps in the 40's.

Rick

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:28 AM

Thanks everyone for contributing some very interesting information. It seems to me there is still much to be learned regarding this topic. Also, the fact that we have information being contributed regarding two entirely separate species (latipinna and velifera) makes it even better, but we need to be sure we identify which species we are giving information about. I hate to sound like a broken record, but anyone who can get access and is interested in the mollies should get access to Bob Ellermann's article ("The Giant Sailfin Mollies of Central America: Poecilia velifera and Poecilia petenensis") in the latest (#200) issue of "Livebearers", the bulletin of the American Livebearer Association. He not only gives information on his experiences in raising velifera (and the third of the "sailfin" mollies, petenensis) but gives a long look at the history of all the mollies in the aquarium trade.

Another thing this article and discussion is pointing out for me is how interconnected this circle of fishkeepers and scientists can be. Ellerman talks about losing his line of pure velifera at one point due to work obligations and searching for close to 15 years before finally finding another pure stock. He was directed to the new wild-stock velifera by Bruce Turner, an well known scientist and aquarist at Virginia Tech. As it turns out this stock was located in a lab in the Biology Dept. of Clemson University. This was around the same time that I had an office in an adjacent building at Clemson not 50 yards from the velifera tanks! I was often in the biology department visiting friends (I was working for the U. S. Forest Service research unit at Clemson) and talking about my work with birds. I even remember seeing the tanks, but I thought they were latipinna. Not only that, but my best friend was working on his PhD under Bruce Turner at Virginia Tech and his research involved collecting latipinna for DNA samples. I helped him out a few times and I remember we collected a few extra mollies for some fellow down in Florida named (you guessed it ) Joel Trexler. A move forced Ellermann to give up his pure strains of velifera and petenensis and both now reside at Goliad Fish Farms (you can see photos on their website: http://www.goliadfar...llies/main.htm) , about 350 miles south of the NANFA convention site in Texas (wish I could go...a side trip and a little sweet talking might get you a pair!).

One thing Ellermann insists is that velifera is much easier to maintain and easier to get a good proportion of huge males than is latipinna. Which makes it even more interesting that Bob had such a problem with his velifera in terms of getting such high proportions of the small sneaker males, that he eventually just gave up. What is the difference? Maybe I'll work on getting my hands on one of those pure strains of velifera and see what I can do.

Looking forward to more info from Mike on the latipinna and some photos of those beautiful males.

Rick

#18 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 02:14 PM

Yeah, it's puzzling. Offhand, I'd guesstimate that both Velifera and Latipinna fish are difficult to work with. If you work with good stock, and pay attention to the details, you can raise your odds of success.

My Velifera were from store bought stock. So my guess is that while they looked like Velifera, they probably had some Latipinna ancestry. In fact, from non-mottled parents, I would sometimes get mottled offspring, the males of which never developed decent sails.

Maybe if I had worked with pure stock from one or the other strains, I might still be working with them.


Thanks everyone for contributing some very interesting information. It seems to me there is still much to be learned regarding this topic. Also, the fact that we have information being contributed regarding two entirely separate species (latipinna and velifera) makes it even better, but we need to be sure we identify which species we are giving information about. I hate to sound like a broken record, but anyone who can get access and is interested in the mollies should get access to Bob Ellermann's article ("The Giant Sailfin Mollies of Central America: Poecilia velifera and Poecilia petenensis") in the latest (#200) issue of "Livebearers", the bulletin of the American Livebearer Association. He not only gives information on his experiences in raising velifera (and the third of the "sailfin" mollies, petenensis) but gives a long look at the history of all the mollies in the aquarium trade.

Another thing this article and discussion is pointing out for me is how interconnected this circle of fishkeepers and scientists can be. Ellerman talks about losing his line of pure velifera at one point due to work obligations and searching for close to 15 years before finally finding another pure stock. He was directed to the new wild-stock velifera by Bruce Turner, an well known scientist and aquarist at Virginia Tech. As it turns out this stock was located in a lab in the Biology Dept. of Clemson University. This was around the same time that I had an office in an adjacent building at Clemson not 50 yards from the velifera tanks! I was often in the biology department visiting friends (I was working for the U. S. Forest Service research unit at Clemson) and talking about my work with birds. I even remember seeing the tanks, but I thought they were latipinna. Not only that, but my best friend was working on his PhD under Bruce Turner at Virginia Tech and his research involved collecting latipinna for DNA samples. I helped him out a few times and I remember we collected a few extra mollies for some fellow down in Florida named (you guessed it ) Joel Trexler. A move forced Ellermann to give up his pure strains of velifera and petenensis and both now reside at Goliad Fish Farms (you can see photos on their website: http://www.goliadfar...llies/main.htm) , about 350 miles south of the NANFA convention site in Texas (wish I could go...a side trip and a little sweet talking might get you a pair!).

One thing Ellermann insists is that velifera is much easier to maintain and easier to get a good proportion of huge males than is latipinna. Which makes it even more interesting that Bob had such a problem with his velifera in terms of getting such high proportions of the small sneaker males, that he eventually just gave up. What is the difference? Maybe I'll work on getting my hands on one of those pure strains of velifera and see what I can do.

Looking forward to more info from Mike on the latipinna and some photos of those beautiful males.

Rick



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Posted 06 May 2008 - 02:20 PM

Taking notes and and keeping records requires a degree of organization, attention to detail and persistance I don't have. I've read of the dynamics that you write about between males taking place. I never saw those dynamics because I would cull out small males as soon as they appeared, before they could mate with any of the females.

However, thinking it through--I usually only developed one good male at most, at a time. It's possible some of the others were just biding their time and waiting for the alpha male to die off.


Bob, did you keep any notes or make any observations on variables such as sex ratio, size of colony, food supply, colony general health, water quality etc?
I get an intuition that X chromosome is only part of the picture.
When my "trio" were first introduced to captivity, it was to a 20 gallon tank which was almost certainly too small. At that stage, the small inferior male successfully mated with the one true female [she was immature and not gravid at capture] and the sleeper male was the recipient of much aggression from both the inferior male and the true female.
I believed they were attempting to drive it out of their very small territory.
Once the three adults and small group of fry were moved to a bigger tank, the sleeper male had an immediate growth spurt followed by manifestation of male characteristics, all WITHIN TWO WEEKS of being moved to the bigger tank.
My impression was that the sleeper male transformed in response to the more favorable environmental conditions in the larger tank.
Soon after transformation into a large, colorful, huge sailed male, the sleeper killed the inferior male with relentless aggression.
Thus began the reign of that dominent male over the colony as related here: http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=3601

During the time that this wild caught sleeper male ruled the colony, no male attributes were ever shown by any offspring although several were obviously male [slimmer profile, slight color, never courted by the dominent male]. The one male I called "The KING" had sole rights to reproduce and grow the colony. At this point there was lots of room, plenty of food and the one male kept all the females gravid and the colony grew to the max size for the tank [a 90 gallon I THINK].
Things stayed stable for over a year at this point.
Then the King died.
Apparently being the only stud for a whole harem of ripe females takes a toll on the longevity of the male. I watched him decline and show obvious old age-like conditions and correctly predicted his death with a couple of weeks.
Once he died, a testosterone outburst occured.
Now the colony is maxed out for space and food supply and unchecked reproduction would be detrimental to long term success.
At the same time, I have several males of all different sizes showing color and sails and the ripe females are being courted by four or five males at a time.
As I see it, population control has turned from quantity to quality. Instead of one male making the max number of offspring, I have only the most successsful males producing a small number of offspring so as to not over tax the food supply or over populate the colony.



#20 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:13 PM

Damn these guys are hard to photograph!
Here's a few pics of the males that bloomed after the death of the dominent male. All these males were sleepers that looked superficially like females. Some were large when they transformed but some are quite small.
This first pic shows one of the small ones. For reference, the fish above is a female rainwater killie, about 2 inches long.
Posted Image
The rest are random pics of the three large prime males. It's almost impossible to catch them displaying because when they see me move while trying to focus, they rush to the front to beg for food. I'll keep trying.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by mikez, 06 May 2008 - 10:16 PM.




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