Lemon Finned Shiner?

Last weekend we caught two unusual shiners and I can't get an ID.

I need help on these two "lemon-finned" shiners:

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Here is one by itself, and this one has a red stomach:

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Edited by minnowmizer, 04 June 2008 - 10:41 AM.

They appear to be southern redbelly dace. If you were collecting these fish from southeastern Kentucky, specifically parts of the Cumberland drainage, and you cannot positively ID dace species I suggest you do not possess and bring them into captivity. A similar fish, the blackside dace, is a federally threatened species found only in a handful of streams. They are readily distinguishable from one another but researching what you might encounter before you take a trip (via state information or Natureserve) will help you avoid what could have been an accidental ESA violation.

We collected these specimens on the Red River drainage basin in Kentucky. It drains to the Kentucky River.

For this particular group of minnows we left a few dozen of the same thing when we took these two. I really think these are shiners rather than dace. The population was quite healthy and I try to be environmentally conscious in everything we do.

By the way, there was an overpass near his particular stream which provides an excellent rock cave environment for the blunt nose minnows we found.

I understand there are some precious commodities in the Red River and I will be sure to investigate this fully and do the right thing if it means returning them. I think we could help by putting them in a different stream that's suitable if this is indeed a rare find. I would be more than glad to be like "Johnny Appleseed" to help a species expand.

I certainly don't want to go down in history as another "carrier pigeon" killer. I would like to do my part in helping endangered species recover to their former glory.

You may have heard of the american chestnut restoration project in Alleghany County, NC. We have land in Alleghany (headwaters to the New River) and we would like to start a restoration project for minnows.

Edited by minnowmizer, 04 June 2008 - 11:33 AM.

They are southern redbelly dace. Look at your avatar, then look at your picture. They are both Phoxonius species.

Returning fish is the absolute opposite of the best environmentally concious thing you could do if you were to accidentally collect a prohibited species. Transplanting a species out of it's native or current range is just as bad and also illegal. Southern redbelly dace are not that rare of a find, they and the blacknose dace it appears you collected are pretty common minnows. I was giving a word of caution because you did not say where you collected these 'unknown' fish from and I could only assume eastern kentucky because that is your posted location. There are certainly ways you can become involved in endangered species restoration programs, like land owner incentive programs, but taking matters into your own hands is not one of those ways.

They are southern redbelly dace. Look at your avatar, then look at your picture. They are both Phoxonius species.

Returning fish is the absolute opposite of the best thing you could do if you accidentally collected a prohibited species. Transplanting a fish out of it's native or current range is also just as bad and also illegal. Southern redbelly dace are not a rare find, I was giving a word of caution because you did not say where you collected these 'unknown' fish from and I could only assume eastern kentucky because that is your posted location. There are certainly ways you can become involved in endangered species restoration programs, like land owner incentive programs, but taking matters into your own hands is not one of those ways.

Thanks for the ID, but I don't think the red belly dace is a Kentucky Native by looking at the maps.

PS, if this was an endangered fish, what is the right thing to do? You haven't told me that.

It is a southern redbelly dace. SRBD Species Account. Many members have collected them througout the Ohio, Tennessee, and Cumberland drainages. They are found in the Red River.

The right thing to do would have been not to keep them, know what you might threatened and endangered species you cuold possibly encounter before your trip and how to recognize them. The rest is between you and your state department of natural resources and region 4 FWS. I cannot and will not speak upon their behalf or speculate upon their policy. Returning it to a body of water, the one you collected it from or foreign, could introduce harmful diseases, parasites, not to mention a potentially non-native native fish.

I'm not sure what information you're referencing but Phoxinus erythrogaster Southern Redbelly Dace are native to KY. I also agree with Matt, your fish appears to be SRBD.

Lots of odd stuff in this topic. I can only try to support what Matt is saying (I'm with him %100). If you're unsure of the ID of a fish, it's only logical to snap a quick photo at the waters edge and immediately release the fish. This will allow you to get the correct ID while at the same time preventing any harm to possibly protected fish. In time you'll have a better handle on ID and books are a great way to start. Books will help with ID, natural ranges and information on the fishes preferred habitat.

Returning fish, moving fish or playing "Johnny Appleseed" as Matt indicated is the opposite of what sound and responsible behavior should be. Please take a look at the NANFA code of ethics . This is great set of rules that we can all live by. I'll post the text below as a refresher.

NANFA Member Code of Ethics
NANFA Members who collect native fishes from the wild and maintain them in private aquaria are encouraged to comply with the following Code of Ethics:

* It is the responsibility of NANFA members to acquaint themselves with, and abide by, the collecting, fishing and fish transfer regulations of each Country, State or Province in which they collect, transfer, or ship fish.

* Collecting must be done in an environmentally sound and responsible manner, which includes, but is not limited to: a) not removing numbers of fishes beyond that which one requires or is capable of sustaining; b) taking all reasonable actions to prevent negative impacts on the habitat in which one collects; c) respecting private property rights; and d) complying with any law-enforcement, natural-resource, or other conservation officer or agent encountered in the field.

* NANFA members who enjoy collecting and maintaining fishes do so of their own accord. Except for specific programs funded and/or sponsored by the Association, NANFA does not sanction any specific collection and/or captive maintenance of native fishes.

* Not all native fishes are suitable for aquaria, and some species may test the skills of even the most experienced aquarist. Therefore, members are encouraged to research the biology and captive requirements of each species before an attempt is made to remove them from the wild.

* Fishes or other aquatic organisms must not be relocated or introduced into any outdoor bodies of water, even to places where they were originally collected (except catch and immediate release), including specimens raised in private aquaria, without permission from the appropriate governing agency. Members must realize that there are complicated and often unknown ecological processes at work in aquatic systems which may make fish introductions detrimental to the system. Potential problems from such introductions include displacement of native species, spread of disease, and the loss of genetic diversity via hybridization.

* All reasonable attempts should be made to maintain fishes with the utmost regard for their safety and health, which includes, but is not limited to: maintaining sufficient water quality; providing water chemistry, temperature, oxygen levels and foods appropriate for each particular species; species compatibility; and the safe and humane transport of fishes from the wild to the aquarium. Sick or infirm specimens should be euthanized in a humane manner and disposed of properly.

It is a southern redbelly dace. SRBD Species Account. Many members have collected them througout the Ohio, Tennessee, and Cumberland drainages. They are found in the Red River.

The right thing to do would have been not to keep them, know what you might threatened and endangered species you cuold possibly encounter before your trip and how to recognize them. The rest is between you and your state department of natural resources and region 4 FWS. I cannot and will not speak upon their behalf or speculate upon their policy. Returning it to a body of water, the one you collected it from or foreign, could introduce harmful diseases, parasites, not to mention a potentially non-native native fish.

It seems there would be a uniform protocol. Nevertheless there isn't.

ok you are right. the redbelly is in our region:

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Minowmizer,

Since you are familiar with NatureServe, you can make yourself a little cheat sheet for your state - put together a little document with the photos and drainage areas of all the protected fish.

Here's an example of what I did for Virginia:
http://forum.nanfa.o...amp;#entry25663

I print it out and take it with me when collecting. For me, it's easier to be able to recognize the protected species than it is to know all the others I might encounter.

I often take out the print out of their watershed lists if I am in an unfamiliar area. For the most part they are up to date and almost give too much information one doesn't encounter everything in a watershed at one location. It is certainly a nice starting point and helps you eliminate possibilities and narrow down a list of fish you may be seeing if you do not know them readily.

I often take out the print out of their watershed lists if I am in an unfamiliar area. For the most part they are up to date and almost give too much information one doesn't encounter everything in a watershed at one location. It is certainly a nice starting point and helps you eliminate possibilities and narrow down a list of fish you may be seeing if you do not know them readily.

I don't see any endangered fish species listed in the Red River Basin.

There appear to be no federal T & E species in the Red River basing but off the top of my head I believe some are state listed. Speaking of Red River, the Red River watershed in Kentucky I'm aware of doesn't draing into the Kentucky River.

There appear to be no federal T & E species in the Red River basing but off the top of my head I believe some are state listed. Speaking of Red River, the Red River watershed in Kentucky I'm aware of doesn't draing into the Kentucky River.

Oh yes -- the Red River is the main headwater to the Kentucky River. The name changes somewhere close to Irvine, KY.

Red River Tributary to the Kentucky River


Here's what the River Gorge looks like:

Edited by minnowmizer, 04 June 2008 - 02:58 PM.

Okay I thought you ment the Red River that is a tributary to the Cumberland. That would be a good clarification to make since there are some synonymous names out there in many states. Knowing that you were potentially close to Daniel Boone and Jellico you should be especially aware of the dace you catch as a precaution.

Okay I thought you ment the Red River that is a tributary to the Cumberland. That would be a good clarification to make since there are some synonymous names out there in many states. Knowing that you were potentially close to Daniel Boone and Jellico you should be especially aware of the dace you catch as a precaution.

Thanks for the heads up. There are four protected minnows in KY and some are in the basin you mentioned:

301 KAR 1:130

blackside dace, palezone shiner, relict darter, duskytail darter

None of our catch is in this list of protected minnows.

Edited by minnowmizer, 04 June 2008 - 05:15 PM.