No sealant. The rubber is stretched, it would almost hold water that way. The pipe clamp seals it up, but if need be you can take it apart easily in the future - say the pipe breaks or you want to up grade.
I have not used this product, but used expanding foam before and I like it. There is a black expanding foam, not sure if its the exact same thing as the yellow insulation stuff, that can be used for glueing rocks together. Sounds a lot easier than cement or caulk.
Water feature advice needed
Started by
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, Jun 12 2008 05:28 PM
37 replies to this topic
#22
Guest_mander_*
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Posted 20 June 2008 - 10:34 AM
Are you talking about the outflows? I imagine they will just be stacked stone and perhaps some caulk to control water flow, no cement. I haven't really thought about them in detail yet, as I'm trying to figure out the overall layout first.
Hmm, seems to me a liner by itself isn't going to last very long, especially at that grade. Most the folks I know, if they are serious about their ponds, eventually go with cement. We have three ponds: two fiber glass, and a small cement one that my husband made 22 years ago. The cement one is my favorite. The school cement pond is 12x12xsloping to 6' deep. It's over 25 years old and still going strong, no leaks.
How long are you hoping for it to last?
Edited by mander, 20 June 2008 - 10:35 AM.
#23
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Posted 20 June 2008 - 12:31 PM
Choupique- That's a great suggestion; I hadn't considered expanding foam as an adhesive.
Mander- Cement is a no-go; the installation would be far too difficult and expensive in this location. I can't even imagine how it would be done; I'd probably have to hire a contractor, and he would not be pleased about not being able to get his equipment to the site, so that would be even more money or else unacceptable removal of trees to allow access.
EPDM liners when properly installed last for decades.
Mander- Cement is a no-go; the installation would be far too difficult and expensive in this location. I can't even imagine how it would be done; I'd probably have to hire a contractor, and he would not be pleased about not being able to get his equipment to the site, so that would be even more money or else unacceptable removal of trees to allow access.
EPDM liners when properly installed last for decades.
#24
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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:00 PM
I have not used this product, but used expanding foam before and I like it. There is a black expanding foam, not sure if its the exact same thing as the yellow insulation stuff, that can be used for gluing rocks together. Sounds a lot easier than cement or caulk.
Where is my husband when I want to ask him something? Oh, yeah, out working. Habit of his. I just don't understand him sometimes.
Anyway, I was at one of his jobs the other day and that foam sounds like what I saw being used. If I can remember to, I'll ask him more about it.
#25
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 08:36 AM
Okay, finally caught up to hubby. The stuff I saw was mortar died black, so can't help you on the foam stuff, he's never used it. He recommends one liner for the entire length. Piecing and overlapping tends to spell problems. He says the liner by itself works just fine so long as no kids or animals walk on it. He uses the cement because he likes the idea of kids playing in ponds.
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
#26
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 09:40 AM
Thanks! I'm not sure I can make the whole thing with no seams, but I'll certainly try to keep them to a minimum.
There is already a swimming pool for the younguns to use; this feature will be strictly ornamental. Hopefully no animals larger than turtles or raccoons will be walking on the liner.
There is already a swimming pool for the younguns to use; this feature will be strictly ornamental. Hopefully no animals larger than turtles or raccoons will be walking on the liner.
#27
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 06:39 PM
It isn't raccoons I'd be afraid of, it's women in stiletto heals. Don't ask me why, but Murphy's law says, "If you have a bare pond liner, a woman you have never met before will walk across it in stiletto heals." It's kind of like rototilling the garden to have the neighbor boy ride his ATV across it. 
#28
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 07:13 PM
Ha! I sure hope that doesn't happen. Stilletto heels are not a common sight out here in the sticks.
I'm looking at pump efficiencies now, trying to figure out if it would be better to use a small pump pushing water from each pool to the one above it rather than one big one pushing water all the way from the bottom to the top of the whole feature. I think it will be a greater initial expense to go with multiple pumps, but if the electrical consumption is much lower it will be worthwhile. The other advantage of staged pumps is that the feature could be installed in modular fashion as I have time and money to spend on each section. The ditch is about 200 feet long in toto, and I would love to have a series of pools and runs from top to bottom; I just can't afford to do all that in one whack. I'll let you know what I figure out.
I'm looking at pump efficiencies now, trying to figure out if it would be better to use a small pump pushing water from each pool to the one above it rather than one big one pushing water all the way from the bottom to the top of the whole feature. I think it will be a greater initial expense to go with multiple pumps, but if the electrical consumption is much lower it will be worthwhile. The other advantage of staged pumps is that the feature could be installed in modular fashion as I have time and money to spend on each section. The ditch is about 200 feet long in toto, and I would love to have a series of pools and runs from top to bottom; I just can't afford to do all that in one whack. I'll let you know what I figure out.
#29
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Posted 07 December 2008 - 09:38 PM
I'm still sporadically working on this project as I have the free time to do so. I've decided at this stage to install only one dam and leave the lower portions of the ditch open.
Site as it is now:
Planned appearance of site:
The pond portion will be in the general vicinity of 3000 gallons. I will do some minor excavation of the existing soil to adjust the contours and depth and provide a steeper slope for the waterfall portion. The existing flat footbridge will be replaced with a longer, arched bridge.
Right now I'm thinking about filtration. I don't intend this pond to be heavily stocked, but it is in a wooded area and will recieve lots of leaf fall and other organic input, so I would like fairly robust mechanical and biological filtration. I will definitely be building any filters myself. Any advice on building pond filters is appreciated. Is it better to have the filters pre- or post-pump?
I'm also strongly considering an inline rather than a submersible pump due to their greater efficiency. I've never used inlines before; any advice or warnings?
Site as it is now:
Planned appearance of site:
The pond portion will be in the general vicinity of 3000 gallons. I will do some minor excavation of the existing soil to adjust the contours and depth and provide a steeper slope for the waterfall portion. The existing flat footbridge will be replaced with a longer, arched bridge.
Right now I'm thinking about filtration. I don't intend this pond to be heavily stocked, but it is in a wooded area and will recieve lots of leaf fall and other organic input, so I would like fairly robust mechanical and biological filtration. I will definitely be building any filters myself. Any advice on building pond filters is appreciated. Is it better to have the filters pre- or post-pump?
I'm also strongly considering an inline rather than a submersible pump due to their greater efficiency. I've never used inlines before; any advice or warnings?
#30
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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:21 PM
I've decided to install a bottom drain, probably about 4" diameter, and run it to a 55-gallon drum settlement chamber placed behind the earthen dam. From there water will go to an inline pump, and thence to a stock tank waterfall filter like this one. I'm not going to fool with skimmers or UV sterilizers or any of that fancy stuff. I'll probably run a second pump for an additional waterfall, but it will just have a simple prefilter.
Edited by Newt, 08 December 2008 - 10:22 PM.
#31
Guest_benmor78_*
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Posted 09 December 2008 - 02:06 AM
That's pretty cool, newt.
#32
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Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:08 AM
Turtle Pond Filtration Article
That article might be helpful while you're considering your filtration method. It's largely geared towards a more still water set up, but filtration needs don't change that much.
If you can make ridges to hold some sort of porous gravel in the stream area it would provide pretty significant bio filtration capacity for almost no cost.
That article might be helpful while you're considering your filtration method. It's largely geared towards a more still water set up, but filtration needs don't change that much.
If you can make ridges to hold some sort of porous gravel in the stream area it would provide pretty significant bio filtration capacity for almost no cost.
#33
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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:25 AM
Ben- Thanks!
Clayton- That's very helpful. I've been snooping around the Koiphen forum but hadn't found such a clear overview.
The stream substrate will replicate my local streams- limestone slabs and reddish chert gravel, probably with some pieces of fossil rugose corals and iron furnace slag. The limestone slabs will hopefully hold the chert in place. I think chert is reasonably porous, and our limestone certainly is.
Clayton- That's very helpful. I've been snooping around the Koiphen forum but hadn't found such a clear overview.
The stream substrate will replicate my local streams- limestone slabs and reddish chert gravel, probably with some pieces of fossil rugose corals and iron furnace slag. The limestone slabs will hopefully hold the chert in place. I think chert is reasonably porous, and our limestone certainly is.
#34
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Posted 09 December 2008 - 02:29 PM
Sounds to me like you're already building a 20-30 foot trickle filter with the stream gravel. I'd add a settling chamber and a very large pre-filter on the pump. I'd also try to dig out an area in one of the ponds that is largely slack water and plant it fairly heavily. Going from there you can see how you're doing on bio filtration.
If you need more you could add the stock tank. Ultimately, it's nothing more than a place for running water to hit a porous media. That's hard to do in a normal garden pond. However, you've got a substrate and water already running over it. I'd be surprised if any of the stock tank style filters could come anywhere close to the amount of media a 30 foot stream bed would hold.
I'd also make it cement so you can get in there after the fish
Though you've already mentioned good reasons against it.
If you need more you could add the stock tank. Ultimately, it's nothing more than a place for running water to hit a porous media. That's hard to do in a normal garden pond. However, you've got a substrate and water already running over it. I'd be surprised if any of the stock tank style filters could come anywhere close to the amount of media a 30 foot stream bed would hold.
I'd also make it cement so you can get in there after the fish
Though you've already mentioned good reasons against it.
#35
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Posted 09 December 2008 - 03:15 PM
Here's the current plan:
Do you think the 55 gallon vortex settlement chamber is too small? It'll be set up with a prefilter kinda like this thing: http://www.koiphen.c...ead.php?t=35054. I figure I can make one with a flower pot, PVC, and some bird netting.
If the chamber is too small, would it do any good to link two barrels together? I'd like to avoid buying a big tank if I can, since I can get the barrels for free.
There will definitely be some planted areas, but I don't know how lush it'll be. The site gets no direct sunlight.
Do you think the 55 gallon vortex settlement chamber is too small? It'll be set up with a prefilter kinda like this thing: http://www.koiphen.c...ead.php?t=35054. I figure I can make one with a flower pot, PVC, and some bird netting.
If the chamber is too small, would it do any good to link two barrels together? I'd like to avoid buying a big tank if I can, since I can get the barrels for free.
There will definitely be some planted areas, but I don't know how lush it'll be. The site gets no direct sunlight.
Edited by Newt, 09 December 2008 - 03:16 PM.
#36
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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:20 PM
The early posts about required flow rate have a good lesson about how much assumptions and design decisions can influence the pump requirements. Depth and width are inextricably related to flow speed. The steeper the grade it flows over the bigger the pump will have to be for a given size stream.
#37
Guest_JeffreyL_*
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Posted 06 January 2009 - 05:30 PM
Hey Newt, really neat looking project! I am jelous. lol
As for using 2 barrels for a settlement chamber, why not just split the line to them with a Y-fitting? Then you have 2 independant chambers, and can join the flow later upstream. Plus, you can alternate cleaning the barrels, if needed.
If you have already considered all this, then to quote Emily Litella, "Never mind".
As for using 2 barrels for a settlement chamber, why not just split the line to them with a Y-fitting? Then you have 2 independant chambers, and can join the flow later upstream. Plus, you can alternate cleaning the barrels, if needed.
If you have already considered all this, then to quote Emily Litella, "Never mind".
Edited by JeffreyL, 06 January 2009 - 05:34 PM.
#38
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Posted 06 January 2009 - 10:20 PM
Thanks Jeffrey! I guess I should update this; I've radically changed my plans after some consideration and consultation. I now intend to build a small concrete block structure in the gully, which will serve as both dam and filter pit. It will have a lined settlement chamber and a skimmer built in.
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