Greenside?
Started by
Guest_JohnO_*
, Aug 16 2008 05:57 PM
22 replies to this topic
#1
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 16 August 2008 - 05:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that's what this is, it was more colorful when I found it. Came from Fast Creek in Red River Gorge in E Ky.
#2
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 16 August 2008 - 07:03 PM
E. zonale. Banded darter
#3
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 16 August 2008 - 08:49 PM
thanks - the more I looked at that darter, the more I realized that it didn't quite have the blunt head of a greenside.
#4
Guest_jblaylock_*
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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:55 AM
What is the difference in the banded darter and the emerald darter?
I recently netted two banded darters (or I thought they were from this ID) and then yesterday I netted another in Harlan County KY where there are no listing for banded darter, so I'm thinking I have emerald darters.
If the banded has the green lower bodys, how do you ID an emerald?
I recently netted two banded darters (or I thought they were from this ID) and then yesterday I netted another in Harlan County KY where there are no listing for banded darter, so I'm thinking I have emerald darters.
If the banded has the green lower bodys, how do you ID an emerald?
#5
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Posted 31 August 2008 - 12:41 PM
Well, without consulting "the books", here's a nice photo of an emerald by Uland Thomas:
By the way, Uland's photos are great for ID purposes because they capture the anatomical details of the fishes very clearly. OK, they're pretty too
Anyway, the first thing that catches my eye is the shape of the head and snout. The emerald having a more blunt snout and deeper head height. Note, in particular the height of the head/nape/back just behind the gill plate. The emerald has more of a hump there, or at least the body is deeper there. Also, the location of the red color in the first dorsal fin. In the emerald there is red near the outer margin of the fin, in the banded darter, the red is at the base of the fin. Although this red color is probably not going to be present in females. So I suppose the most reliable character for quick ID of specimens in the field would be the shape of the snout. The emerald having a more, blunt, down turned snout. The other thing that would quickly narrow it down would be the known range of the two species. The emerald is restricted to certain watersheds in KY, whereas the banded has a very broad range across many states.
I imagine if you research some keys about these two, there are other anatomical and color details that can be used to separate them reliably.
By the way, Uland's photos are great for ID purposes because they capture the anatomical details of the fishes very clearly. OK, they're pretty too
Anyway, the first thing that catches my eye is the shape of the head and snout. The emerald having a more blunt snout and deeper head height. Note, in particular the height of the head/nape/back just behind the gill plate. The emerald has more of a hump there, or at least the body is deeper there. Also, the location of the red color in the first dorsal fin. In the emerald there is red near the outer margin of the fin, in the banded darter, the red is at the base of the fin. Although this red color is probably not going to be present in females. So I suppose the most reliable character for quick ID of specimens in the field would be the shape of the snout. The emerald having a more, blunt, down turned snout. The other thing that would quickly narrow it down would be the known range of the two species. The emerald is restricted to certain watersheds in KY, whereas the banded has a very broad range across many states.I imagine if you research some keys about these two, there are other anatomical and color details that can be used to separate them reliably.
#6
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:06 PM
I may have found one of those, too. It has the blunt head similar to the greenside, but I could see emerald bands on the tail, and it has a red stripe on top of the anterior dorsal fin, which doesn't sound right for a greenside or the photos I've seen of a banded.
The emerald darter is listed in the gorge area, Powell/Menifee, which is where I found it. Darn, just when you think you've learned something about these little fellows, here comes another one.
The emerald darter is listed in the gorge area, Powell/Menifee, which is where I found it. Darn, just when you think you've learned something about these little fellows, here comes another one.
#7
Guest_jblaylock_*
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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:41 PM
Interesting. About a month ago I netted what I thought was a male Greenside in breeding colors, It has the red high on the dorsal fin, so now I'm guessing it's an emerald darter netted in the Cumberland River.
#8
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Posted 31 August 2008 - 11:28 PM
Greensides are pretty distinctive. They tend to be larger than the banded and emerald. Of course they all start out small. The greenside can have a red band in the first dorsal, though I think it's low like the banded. It also has large "U" shaped markings down the side, and wide stripes running on an angle and curving down the face (on the head). Also the body shape is much more cylindrical as opposed to flattened like most fishes. The head, in particular is broad when viewed from above as compared to the other two.
#9
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Posted 31 August 2008 - 11:45 PM
Here are some shots of greensides. These are Uland Thomas' again:
These are Todd Crail's:
This is another photographer:
As you can see, the "U" shaped markings become obscured when the fish is in breeding color. It's helpful to look at lots of specimens of this one, since it's rather variable. I think it's being split into several new species as we speak!
These are Todd Crail's:
This is another photographer:
As you can see, the "U" shaped markings become obscured when the fish is in breeding color. It's helpful to look at lots of specimens of this one, since it's rather variable. I think it's being split into several new species as we speak!
#10
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 01 September 2008 - 09:18 AM
Following up on the greenside that was actually a banded but brought up the subject of emerald, here's a shot of this one that has the greenside's blunt head, but that red stripe along the top of the dorsal. Narrow depth of field on my macro photo setup sort of clobbers the ends, but as much as I asked this little rascal to please face the side of the tank, it just wouldn't listen.
#11
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Posted 01 September 2008 - 09:21 AM
Do they lose their colors quickly? I've found a lot of larger greensides, they seem to abound in the central KY area, but never have seen one in the bright green colors.
#12
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Posted 01 September 2008 - 11:22 AM
Seems like they only achieve that really deep green during the height of the breeding season. In Ohio that's the month of May. In Kentucky it's likely earlier depending on water temperatures. As the water continues to warm, the colors fade. This is true of many of the darters, really the majority. Some individuals will maintain more color than others over the summer. Greensides in general, though, lose most of that deep green and look like the first four photos above.
#13
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Posted 01 September 2008 - 11:26 AM
I'd call that an emerald darter. Note the red at the outer margin of the first dorsal fin and the shape of the dark markings along the side. Rather than being the deep "U" shaped marks like a greenside darter, they are more like straight dashes that don't dip down much.
#14
Guest_jimv8673_*
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Posted 15 November 2008 - 07:11 PM
What is the difference in the banded darter and the emerald darter?
I recently netted two banded darters (or I thought they were from this ID) and then yesterday I netted another in Harlan County KY where there are no listing for banded darter, so I'm thinking I have emerald darters.
If the banded has the green lower bodys, how do you ID an emerald?
Beautiful darters, Off the topic a little, Did you by any chance hear banjo music, when you were in Harlan County
(born and raised in Ohio County)
#15
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Posted 15 November 2008 - 07:58 PM
Beautiful darters, Off the topic a little, Did you by any chance hear banjo music, when you were in Harlan County
Yeah I heard it, my dad was playin it on the front porch.....I'm from Harlan county and my family still lives there.
Edited by jblaylock, 15 November 2008 - 07:59 PM.
#16
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Posted 15 November 2008 - 09:56 PM
Kewl, thought i was the only hilljack on hereYeah I heard it, my dad was playin it on the front porch.....I'm from Harlan county and my family still lives there.
Went to high school in BeaverDam, Ky in ohio county, not too far from Harlan county
Edited by jimv8673, 15 November 2008 - 10:00 PM.
#17
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Posted 15 November 2008 - 10:07 PM
Kewl, thought i was the only hilljack on here
IDK, that's quite a haul. I lived in Louisville for a while, graduated from UofL...and once got a ticket in Hancock county
#18
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Posted 16 November 2008 - 12:01 PM
As you can see, the "U" shaped markings become obscured when the fish is in breeding color. It's helpful to look at lots of specimens of this one, since it's rather variable. I think it's being split into several new species as we speak!
Yeah I see two of the subspecies here... I think the majority are philodotum (blobs going into v's, vs. w's), esp that fired up male (by color alone). I'm going to guess that Uland's second fish came from the Green. There's not enough of a frenum to be very newmanii, but it's just not right for blennioides either. I'm curiuos to know where it's from
Mark, is the fired up male your photo? If so, may I use it in a local aquarists forum to illustrate what "Burn Your Eyes Out Green" is? Credits of course
Todd
#19
Guest_JohnO_*
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Posted 16 November 2008 - 09:35 PM
Kewl, thought i was the only hilljack on here
You know what they say - hillbillies have the best darters. Well, they should say it...
#20
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Posted 17 November 2008 - 01:29 AM
Mark, is the fired up male your photo? If so, may I use it in a local aquarists forum to illustrate what "Burn Your Eyes Out Green" is? Credits of course
Todd
Well, I think I got that photo from Brian Zimmerman. And I think it was shot by a friend of his on one of their outings. Check with Brian. I imagine he will remember and be happy to share it.
Peace.
Mark
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