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#1 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 02:55 PM

After putting this fish in my tank it looks like some dollar sunfish photos I have seen. I was in Lafayette Louisiana last week and was catching these on rod and reel. All were this size or smaller. Consider this a very washed out fish. He had been in a white bucket for some time. These were the most beautiful sunfish I have ever caught by rod and reel bar none.

I have shipped four live ones to an expert and I await his response. He said he has never seen a dollar sunfish like this one but on the other hand has never seen a long ear like it either. I figured I would give you guys and girls a crack at it till I get the experts opinion. '

This fish was caught in a road side ditch. Mud bottomed, slow to no movement in the water, vegatation in the water and at the waters edge.

Well good luck. I will let you know who the expert is when you have some fun with it for yourselves.

Kind Regards,
Daniel

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#2 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 03:54 PM

Well I'm not qualified to judge species outside my region of experience, but...
I believe that humpedback shape is indicitive of an older adult breeding age male. Therefore, because of the small size of the individual in question, I have to assume it is a species that matures at a small size. Seems to me dollar sunfish would fit the size and coloration better than most others I can think of. Don't go by me though, I'm just typing out loud.

#3 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, that's a weird one. Looks mostly like a longear but not quite. Might be a hybrid of longear and dollar. Here's a shot of one from Kentucky. Not really the same as yours, but the way the blue color outlines the scale margins is similar and not typical of either species, so possibly a hybrid character:

Attached File  smallIMGA1227.jpg   25.14KB   3 downloads

#4 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 11:28 PM

After putting this fish in my tank it looks like some dollar sunfish photos I have seen. I was in Lafayette Louisiana last week and was catching these on rod and reel. All were this size or smaller. Consider this a very washed out fish. He had been in a white bucket for some time. These were the most beautiful sunfish I have ever caught by rod and reel bar none.

I have shipped four live ones to an expert and I await his response. He said he has never seen a dollar sunfish like this one but on the other hand has never seen a long ear like it either. I figured I would give you guys and girls a crack at it till I get the experts opinion. '

This fish was caught in a road side ditch. Mud bottomed, slow to no movement in the water, vegatation in the water and at the waters edge.

Well good luck. I will let you know who the expert is when you have some fun with it for yourselves.

Kind Regards,
Daniel


Did all the fish exhibit the same head profile? Were there other smilar species present that you are confident in your ability to classify? Head of single fish photographed looks like a form of cretenism.

#5 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 12:03 PM

The "dollar sunfish?" photographed bothers me. Was the collection site near the transition zone between the western dollar and one other two dollars?

#6 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 08:27 PM

Well I'm not qualified to judge species outside my region of experience, but...
I believe that humpedback shape is indicitive of an older adult breeding age male. Therefore, because of the small size of the individual in question, I have to assume it is a species that matures at a small size. Seems to me dollar sunfish would fit the size and coloration better than most others I can think of. Don't go by me though, I'm just typing out loud.



That was my thought also so I am with you on this. I am waiting on the subspecies ID on it. From what I understand there are the western form and the eastern form but my expert says he has never seen one exactly like this one. He wanted them dead or alive for study. I shipped them over night shipping so I am hopeing that all four I sent him including the one in the photo made it to him swimming and breathing.

Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 03 September 2008 - 09:06 PM.


#7 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 08:45 PM

On the last two answers/questions I do not know. Of course there were drab ones this size that I assume were females. I sent two drab and two very colorful ones to my friend the Icthyologist. So I await his response. But to elaborate a bit, some had slightly different ear flaps indicative of young long ears and I was also thinking on the lines of hybrid as one mentioned here but I will let the expert judge that for me. But all fish caught were not above this size. Actually this is the largest of all the ones I caught and I caught a lot of them. Lets say in the thirty to fifty range, Keeping only four.

I believe them to be dollar sunfish. My brother that I was fishing with caught a warmouth in that ditch and it had red spots that were very well defined and very large, evenly displaced on the side and dark red. Was the most beautiful warmouth I have ever seen. I was also catching young green sunfish there also. And I must say for young green sunfish they were the most colorerful I have ever seen at about 2.5 to three inches long. Looks like all three (or four) species I was catching in there were more colorful for their size than any I have ever seen. And I must say I have a very strong likeing for the small greens. I would have to say they are among the top three sunfish that I like best. Dollar, Greens, and Warmouths. I would add this that I am very accustomed to catching central long ears here in Tennessee about the size of this dollar I have photographed here and when you pull these dollars in "the ones I was catching in the ditch in Louisiana" they had the appearance of being much more disk shaped than the young central long ears I catch here in Tennessee and about six times more colorful at the three to four inch range ( again the ones I was catching in Louisiana).

Keep the info comming and I appreciate the conversations that are generated here. But just for fun I will keep the name of my expert secret till I hear from him. He is a NANFA member and of course his masters degree is in icthyology.

Please keep the info comming it is very interesting to hear from you all.

Thanks in Advance,
Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 03 September 2008 - 09:17 PM.


#8 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 08:50 PM

Well I'm not qualified to judge species outside my region of experience, but...
I believe that humpedback shape is indicitive of an older adult breeding age male. Therefore, because of the small size of the individual in question, I have to assume it is a species that matures at a small size. Seems to me dollar sunfish would fit the size and coloration better than most others I can think of. Don't go by me though, I'm just typing out loud.



Notice the sparkles in the tail. I put this one individual in a fifteen all by his lonesome and these sparkles appeared all over his body after he finished blushing and became comfortable in the tank. I have seen dollar sunfish photos that look exactly like he looked after he returned to his normal coloration in the fifteen gallon tank after being in a bucket for about four days with airation. I am so excited because I have been looking for a location for dollar sunfish for a very long time when I visit where I was born and raised in Lafayette Louisiana and it seems I have now hit the jackpot.

Daniel

#9 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 08:53 PM

The "dollar sunfish?" photographed bothers me. Was the collection site near the transition zone between the western dollar and one other two dollars?


Lafayette Louisiana. I do not believe the eastern dollar would be present there but that is why I am seeking proffesional advice. But I do believe only the western varity is supposed to be there.

Daniel

#10 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 09:01 PM

Yeah, that's a weird one. Looks mostly like a longear but not quite. Might be a hybrid of longear and dollar. Here's a shot of one from Kentucky. Not really the same as yours, but the way the blue color outlines the scale margins is similar and not typical of either species, so possibly a hybrid character:

Attached File  smallIMGA1227.jpg   25.14KB   3 downloads


Ear flap, sparkles in the tail, and body when he settled in my tank by himself and got over his blushing, he had sparkles over the entire body also, and the deep red coloration in the fins are all different in the photo of the one in Kentucky. And also the scale coloration is very different on the fish I caught in Louisiana. This fish from Kentucky looks exactly like the young central long ears I catch here all the time, and I do mean plentiful in the Tennessee and Hiwasee river systems and all streams leading into it. So lets say when you are used to seeing a fish very very frequently and then you go to Louisiana and pull these out the difference is very very noticible. Definatly a different fish. What kind I will find out shortly. But I do appreciate all input and educational conversation on this matter.

Daniel

#11 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 09:15 PM

Did all the fish exhibit the same head profile? Were there other smilar species present that you are confident in your ability to classify? Head of single fish photographed looks like a form of cretenism.



No! The drab ones that I assumed were female did not have this hump. And I am very confident in identifying central long ears cause I catch them here in Tennessee all the time but I must say I could not without a doubt call any I was catching Long ears. Some ear flaps were a little larger but that is why I am seeking proffesional opinion. There may or may not have been some long ears in there. But the habitat by far would not suit long ears in the least. Verry muddy bottom. Slow to non moving water. Vegatation in the middle and plenty on the edges. And a ditch I could have jumped across in my prime youth, but not now after three back surgeries. This is prime dollar habitat I was fishing in. Time and expert Identification will tell me what these are.

Thanks for your response,
Daniel

#12 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 10:20 PM

I think Nativecajun has been giving me a little more credit than I deserve, I certainly am a professional fish biologist and do have a lot of experience with sunfish but I'm not so sure I am as good as he has made me out to be... That being said the fish arrived today half alive and half not. The two that survived the trip I think will recover. I do think these fish are some sort of dollar sunfish although they look rather different from dollar sunfish I have collected in NC and MO. Although I have not personally had any in my possesion they look most like pictures I have seen of Dollar Sunfish taken in Florida. The location these were taken from does seem to be within the western dollar sunfish range, if there is such a thing. I'm not too sure there is much of a distinction between the different forms of dollar sunfish... It seems to me there are at least two probably three distinct forms of Dollars but they have not been awarded even the status of subspecies, as far as I know. I would be interested in hearing what a certain member from WI has to say about these fish since he has had some of the "Florida Dollar sunfish". I would like to know how these compare to them in his experience. For now though I think only us Native Fish Nuts even distinguish between dollar varieties so who knows what they really are. I am rather confident though that these are not Longears of any type, and they do not appear to be hybrids.

#13 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 10:22 PM

Pectoral fin ray counts, and cheek scale counts??

#14 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 10:36 PM

I might be able to take the time to do so this weekend, right now I got to get to bed, gotta get up way too early for a scouting trip on the Ohio River for work.

#15 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 12:55 AM

Would be good if you could get some more photos, Brian, and Native. I have seen lots of dollars from Florida and they are rather distinctive. That first picture didn't look like 'em. Biggest problem with that picture is that the ear flap doesn't appear to have much of a light margin. And it's lacking the light marks on the center of the ear flap that are typical of western dollars and others I have seen from Louisiana.

Here's a Florida dollar:

Posted Image

Here's one that I believe is from Louisiana that is typical of the western type:

Attached File  smallLmarginatusLA_01.jpg   45.85KB   0 downloads

Yeah, I know the Florida type lacks the light marks on the earflap, but it does have a distinct light margin on the ear flap.

#16 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 01:04 PM

Would be good if you could get some more photos, Brian, and Native. I have seen lots of dollars from Florida and they are rather distinctive. That first picture didn't look like 'em. Biggest problem with that picture is that the ear flap doesn't appear to have much of a light margin. And it's lacking the light marks on the center of the ear flap that are typical of western dollars and others I have seen from Louisiana.

Here's a Florida dollar:

Posted Image

Here's one that I believe is from Louisiana that is typical of the western type:

Attached File  smallLmarginatusLA_01.jpg   45.85KB   0 downloads

Yeah, I know the Florida type lacks the light marks on the earflap, but it does have a distinct light margin on the ear flap.


I gave all the ones I had to Brian. So no more photos from me. And I must say that the dollar sunfish photo you have from florida is very pale in comparison to when I pulled this fish I have photo'ed here right from the water. This is a sort of washed out photo from all the color it had when I first pulled him out. I wished I would have splayed the dorsal spines out for a count but did not think of that. It looks like I will have to make a trip down there again. I may take a short trip for thanksgiving. I may even empty my forty breeder so I can bring back more than four and have room for them when I get back. And another thing if you notice the specks in the tail well they were somewhat all over the body like some of the western dollar photos I have seen. I am interested now ( Brian ) where you think the range stops and starts with the western forms and eastern forms. I have been told that anything west of the Mississippi could be western dollar sunfish. Maybe I missunderstood what you said up there. And I think you are the expert. Gotta give yourself credit sometime.

About the marks on the earflap. I was catching some that had marks going into the earflap. They however did not have a very distinct white margin around the flap. And the marks were more like a continuation of the cheek color but patterned and not flecked like the photo you have here of the western variaty.

Thanks again for all the input. I was just excited after all these trips looking for dollar sunfish that I finaly found some and in abundance.

Daniel

#17 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 01:12 PM

I will look for the full Resolution one I have of the Western Dollar Sunfish I am using for my Avatar right now. This is one that I owned for some time. The one that I have posted here certainly did not look exactly like my avatar but I have seen other "western dollar photos" that looked like the one I had once he had his colors back in my fifteen before I shipped him to Brian.

I certainly look forward to bringing more back with me next trip down there when ever that will be. Hopefully before the end of the year. When and if I find the larger photo of my avatar I will post it here.

Daniel

#18 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 01:34 PM

Here is the fish from my Avatar and the other I caught at Lake martin and was passing them off as young Long Ears. I still think that is what it is the one in my hand but you tell me your thoughts.

Daniel

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#19 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 01:38 PM

Maybe I can tempt my brother in Louisiana to go fishing in that spot and bring his camera and take lots of photos for me of these fish in question. I do not know why I did not bring my camera cause I always do. I will get with him and have him go there and fish and he is usually very accomodating with me for fish photos when he is fishing down there.

Daniel

#20 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:17 PM

Did all the fish exhibit the same head profile? Were there other smilar species present that you are confident in your ability to classify? Head of single fish photographed looks like a form of cretenism.



Like I mentioned these fish were all up and down the ditch we were fishing in. I do not believe they are stunted longears by the longest stretch. Like I said I catch central long ears a lot here in Tennessee and the ones I catch this size look nothing like this. And again the habitat is prime habitat for Dollar Sunfish and terrible habitat for Long Ear Sunfish. There were some that had slightly longer ear flaps but not very much longer. But I can say this that some had flecks in the ear flap and some did not. And the hump head I believe, as another person here said, is indicitave of a mature adult sunfish thus at this size would be a dollar sunfish. I have most all doubt removed from my head now that these are nothing but Western Dollar Sunfish. But to answer your question I really was not paying that much attention to the heads of all the fish so I really cannot give you a definative answer if there were more fish with this type of head. What I did notice when pulling them out of the water is that they were much more disk shaped than the young central long ears I catch here in Tennessee so that is another reason I think they are Western Dollars. All the dollar sunfish adults I have seen seem to me anyway to be more disk shaped.

I have asked my brother to go fishing there and he agreed since it is only about twenty minutes from his house. He will photograph a large variety of them both drab (possible females) and very colorful (possible males) so hopefully shortly we will have a large amount of photos to compare. I will make certain he takes many many. I will create an album in the album section for photos for all to examine. I think I may have an album already in there but I am not sure. So you can look forward to seeing more photos of these beautiful little fish. I will ask him to use a ruler or some standard so we will know the sizes of them.

And Brian I am thinking of you for these photos as well. I hope they help you in your studies of Lepomis Species and the reason for the color difference in different parts of the country. So look forward to a large variety of photos from that spot in Lafayette.

I will ask him to photograph the green sunfish and warmouths as well. I am talking green sunfish under two inches or so, that were so so colorful. I love those little green sunfish.

Daniel











Daniel




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