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#21 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:40 PM

The fish do appear to have a slight margin but it is not as distinct as other dollars I have seen. Also based off what Daniel is saying about the habitat they were caught in, it does not sound much like anything I have ever found a longear in, except maybe Northern Longear but that's a whole different discussion. I'm really not too sure what else to say for now, I need to spend a couple hours this weekend looking closely at these fish to do some counts and get some photos.

#22 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 11:02 PM

Here is the fish from my Avatar and the other I caught at Lake martin and was passing them off as young Long Ears. I still think that is what it is the one in my hand but you tell me your thoughts.

Daniel



That first photo is typical western dollar. The second one is pretty solid longear, but the body color is a little weird. Would need to know where that came from. Also, It's not unusual to have longears with light color leaking onto the anterior end of the ear flap. Look at the fish on the dust jacket of American Aquarium Fishes by Robert J. Goldstein. I think that is a regional trait. Western dollars usually have varying degrees of distinct light blue markings on almost any part of the dark ear flap. Florida and Carolina dollars usually lack this as do longears.

#23 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 11:07 PM

What I did notice when pulling them out of the water is that they were much more disk shaped than the young central long ears I catch here in Tennessee so that is another reason I think they are Western Dollars. All the dollar sunfish adults I have seen seem to me anyway to be more disk shaped.
Daniel



Yes, that body shape is one of the standard characteristics used to distinguish longears from dollars.

#24 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 11:15 PM

The fish do appear to have a slight margin but it is not as distinct as other dollars I have seen. Also based off what Daniel is saying about the habitat they were caught in, it does not sound much like anything I have ever found a longear in, except maybe Northern Longear but that's a whole different discussion. I'm really not too sure what else to say for now, I need to spend a couple hours this weekend looking closely at these fish to do some counts and get some photos.



Do you think that all of the fish you received from Daniel are very similar in appearance to one another? Also, on the point about longear habitat, I remember Ray Wolff mentioning a different type of "longear" that he would find in slack waters/bayous of Louisiana. Might want to consult with him too. Could be that the ultimate long term outcome of this would be the description of a new species :biggrin: Oooh! Doesn't that get your juices flowing! :biggrin:

I did some sampling of a backwater in extreme west Kentucky to check out another weird "variant". Still have the bodies in my freezer. Some day I'll have to do careful examination of them or let someone else do it. I do have some photos of dead specimens. Colors are pretty faded. Weird body shapes.

#25 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 07:23 AM

Yes, that body shape is one of the standard characteristics used to distinguish longears from dollars.



Wow I am glad someone else said this and not just me. Because that was very very noticable when I pulled them out of the water.

#26 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 07:33 AM

That first photo is typical western dollar. The second one is pretty solid longear, but the body color is a little weird. Would need to know where that came from. Also, It's not unusual to have longears with light color leaking onto the anterior end of the ear flap. Look at the fish on the dust jacket of American Aquarium Fishes by Robert J. Goldstein. I think that is a regional trait. Western dollars usually have varying degrees of distinct light blue markings on almost any part of the dark ear flap. Florida and Carolina dollars usually lack this as do longears.


The fish that looks like a solid longear I agree. This fish came from Lake Martin near Lafayette Louisiana. A lake that has open water then closed water. "water plants of all sorts on top of the water". A mud bottomed lake. But I have caught much larger fish like the long ear pictured above. "the one I put with my old photo of my dollar sunfish"

But now that someone said the body shape is indicative of a western dollar I am 100 percent over the top in believing the ones I were catching in that ditch are indeed western dollar sunfish. It is like pulling 200 fish out of the water here in Tennessee and then going down there and pulling one of those dollars out of the water. Very disk shaped and much more colorful. I was cathing some down in Louisiana in that ditch that were at least half the size of my first post and they were very disk shaped and so much color more than I have ever seen on a long ear that size. I am talking a 2 to 2.5 inch fish with all the color of an adult long ear but disk shaped and colors different than long ears.

Thanks for all your input everyone. I love learning and this has been a big help. And like Brian said "now I do not want to put words in his mouth for his business" but he may have some to sell some day if the surviving two were indeed a pair. Plus I am going to try to make a short trip down there again to collect more and hopefully get him more I can ship his way.

At any rate we have photos coming from my brother and that will be exciting. I told him to take a LOT of photos of the dollar sunfish and I will post them in an album I will create if I do not already have one. So look forward to many photos.

#27 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 05:05 PM

Do you think that all of the fish you received from Daniel are very similar in appearance to one another? Also, on the point about longear habitat, I remember Ray Wolff mentioning a different type of "longear" that he would find in slack waters/bayous of Louisiana. Might want to consult with him too. Could be that the ultimate long term outcome of this would be the description of a new species :biggrin: Oooh! Doesn't that get your juices flowing! :biggrin:

I did some sampling of a backwater in extreme west Kentucky to check out another weird "variant". Still have the bodies in my freezer. Some day I'll have to do careful examination of them or let someone else do it. I do have some photos of dead specimens. Colors are pretty faded. Weird body shapes.


Itsme,

I am familar with the variant longear of which you speak and have been calling it the "oxbow longear". Initially found them in Reelfoot lake, TN but also later in some oxbows in western Kentucky up to and including lower Ohio River flood plain. I still have two six inch females alive in lab. They look odd as adults but when I bred them in the lab, larval development is the real kicker for me (behavior and morphology). I say they are easily a distinct species as a they abruptly come into contact with the more typical upland central longear sunfish.

#28 Guest_TomNear_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 01:39 PM

If you can provide small fin clips in ethanol, I would be happy to sequence a mitochondrial and nuclear gene.

Also, would it be possible to have some formalin fixed specimens if this turns out to be something interesting?

Attached is a PDF of an unpublished mitochondrial phylogeny of L. megalotis/marginatus. We could see 1) what Lepomis species the mtDNA and nuclear allele clusters with in the phylogeny, and 2) if this is a margalotis spcies, where it falls out in this mtDNA gene tree (phylogeny).

All of my centrarchid phylogeny papers are available on my website, except Kassler et al. that is being scanned by my lab tech next week.

http://www.yale.edu/eeb/near/pubs.htm



After putting this fish in my tank it looks like some dollar sunfish photos I have seen. I was in Lafayette Louisiana last week and was catching these on rod and reel. All were this size or smaller. Consider this a very washed out fish. He had been in a white bucket for some time. These were the most beautiful sunfish I have ever caught by rod and reel bar none.

I have shipped four live ones to an expert and I await his response. He said he has never seen a dollar sunfish like this one but on the other hand has never seen a long ear like it either. I figured I would give you guys and girls a crack at it till I get the experts opinion. '

This fish was caught in a road side ditch. Mud bottomed, slow to no movement in the water, vegatation in the water and at the waters edge.

Well good luck. I will let you know who the expert is when you have some fun with it for yourselves.

Kind Regards,
Daniel

Attached Files



#29 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:32 PM

Well I have been doing a little research on my own. I do believe that hybrid is a possibility for my fish posted here but not likely.

I was reading an article written by a very experienced fish man. I do not know his background but Ray Wollff is his name. I have seen many scholarly articles written by him so I have come to trust his calls on many things. In one article he states that the Western form of dollar sunfish has a superior mouth to the eastern form. That superior form being an upturned or upward slung mouth. In my photo the mouth is obviously upward turned or upslung. I do not believe the Long eared sunfish has this charachteristic "up turned mouth". I believe the Long ears mouth is more like the eastern form of the Dollar sunfish.

Well I just thought I would share what I found. I should have coppied the URL for that article but did not. I will go back and then come and edit this reply to include the URL for that particular article I was reading. By the way the photo that someone posted here looks like a plain old long ear to me. Correct me if I am wrong but I catch young long ears a lot here in Tennessee in the Hiwasee and Tennessee rivers and their tributaries and they look exactly like the photo somone posted here of a fish caught in Kentucky.

Well Kind Regards for now, and I will get that address for that article on the two varieties of dollar sunfish. It is an article actually on breeding the two species.

Web address to the article I speak of here. http://fins.actwin.c...2/msg00154.html

Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 06 September 2008 - 02:39 PM.


#30 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:37 PM

If you can provide small fin clips in ethanol, I would be happy to sequence a mitochondrial and nuclear gene.

Also, would it be possible to have some formalin fixed specimens if this turns out to be something interesting?

Attached is a PDF of an unpublished mitochondrial phylogeny of L. megalotis/marginatus. We could see 1) what Lepomis species the mtDNA and nuclear allele clusters with in the phylogeny, and 2) if this is a margalotis spcies, where it falls out in this mtDNA gene tree (phylogeny).

All of my centrarchid phylogeny papers are available on my website, except Kassler et al. that is being scanned by my lab tech next week.

http://www.yale.edu/eeb/near/pubs.htm



I have given the fish to Brian Zimmerman. I do not believe he wants to hand out samples for now.

Kind Regards,
Daniel

#31 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:46 PM

I think the second fish of post # 18 also occurs up into Mississippi and Ohio River bottoms of Kentucky as it looks very similar to what I have been seeing in lowland / lentic habitats like oxbows. It is my opinion the fish starting this thread is not a dollar of any sort, but rather more closely associated with central longear or the northern longear but not those either. The animals I possess are also somewhat blanched but differences go beyond coloration. I will suggest they are a longear like species that is adapted to lentic habitats of the big river flood plain within the Mississippi Embayment.

Edited by centrarchid, 06 September 2008 - 02:51 PM.


#32 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 03:17 PM

I think the second fish of post # 18 also occurs up into Mississippi and Ohio River bottoms of Kentucky as it looks very similar to what I have been seeing in lowland / lentic habitats like oxbows. It is my opinion the fish starting this thread is not a dollar of any sort, but rather more closely associated with central longear or the northern longear but not those either. The animals I possess are also somewhat blanched but differences go beyond coloration. I will suggest they are a longear like species that is adapted to lentic habitats of the big river flood plain within the Mississippi Embayment.



I almost need someone to translate what you posted here. " Lentic Habitats of big river flood plain within the Mississippi Embayment "

I do not know what you mean by the above quote. These fish were caught in a small very very vegatated in and around on the banks ditch with practically no movement in the water. As far as flood plain with the Mississippi I can only remember my Mother telling me of the "Great Flood" when she was young and lived in Carencro Louisiana. She said the Mississippi flooded and reached all the way to Carencro. This would be about a 55 mile trip. It flooded enough that cattle were hanging in trees after the flood. So I can only assume that "yes it is a flood plain of the Mississippi" but about it not being a dollar sunfish at all, more study, and many more photos that are on there way from my brother in Lafayette where these fish were caught will shed more light on this subject. And the part that says " It is my opinion the fish starting this thread is not a dollar of any sort, but rather more closely associated with central longear or the northern longear but not those either ".
This statement is confusing to me. But maybe you can clarify?? I believe they are solid Dollar sunfish of the western variety. I can only elaborate again that I have caught hundreds of central long ears and the small fish I was catching in this ditch in Lafayette Louisiana were way more disc shaped than the Young Long Ears I catch in Tennessee. Color is no where the same, mouth is no where the same, fin coloration is no where the same, ear flaps are no where near the same as the young Central Long Ears I catch here in Tennessee.

With all that said. I hope my brother does a good job at recording many photos that I can put in my album that I will create just for this fish. These fish looked like nothing I have ever caught before. Some like little saucers "very disc shaped". Untill then I can only agree to disagree with some of the statements within this thread and I am not picking on any particular post as a whole.

I can say though that now I am more excited than ever to see many more photos.

Edit Here. If you are talking about the fish in my hand I do believe it is a solid long ear. But I do believe as I think you said or someone else that it is a different form of some sort of Long Ear. Every time I catch one of these in Louisiana "much different bodies or water than the first post here" I always second guess thinking is this a long ear or a dollar. I must say that the one in my hand photo is different than the young centrals I catch here in Tennessee. But to clarify the habitat they come from in Louisiana "fish in hand" they come from large lakes and their tributaries. In one of my responses I was believing that the fish that started this post was being called a solid long ear. On that one I do not agree if it was said at all. Now the photo of the one in my hand I do believe it is a long ear but somewhat different than any I catch here in Tennessee. I am starting, if not have been, for some time repeating my self so I will wait now on the photos from my brother, and I hope he does a good job. He is not a fish enthusiast nor a photographer. I told him just to place them on a white towel as soon as he pulled them from the water and put a ruler over or under them to create a bench mark for size.

Kind Regards,
Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 06 September 2008 - 03:43 PM.


#33 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 04:09 PM

Lentic means no or very little stream like flow, as in a lake. The area known as the "Mississippi Embayment" used to be a part of the Gulf of Mexico at one time in the past extended up to southern Illinois and southeastern Missouri. It has silted in but still carries the Mississippi river and its flood plain whin in many areas is wider than 100 miles. This area is now the cotton, soybean and channel catfish producing region of the south that until the Army Corp got involved was very swamp like with many oxbows. The floods like in the historical record seldom are realized because of the extensive levee systems in place. The oxbows and the associated lowland, low gradient streams have low flow velocities and typically are heavily vegetated or at least have such patches.

I think if the Gel jockies get a look at these fish, they will say the odd looking fish I have and what I think you have are more closely related to the longear group than the dollars. I will even bet they are more closely associated with the northern longear than upland central longear most are familiar with. The later is more similar excepting color intensity, espcially when considering habitat types. I agree, your fish are more disk shaped than fish you may captured in Tennessee but have you ever caught any from Reelfoot Lake and compered those to the central longear of the clear rocky upland streams? I think you will see the two forms of longear can be found close together yet are very different.

Sorry for sloppy writing. I am running back and forth taking care of a bluegill breeding colony gone wild.

Edited by centrarchid, 06 September 2008 - 04:42 PM.


#34 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 05:48 PM

Ok I have taken a much closer look at these 4 fish and I think the Mississippi flood plain form of Longear that Centrarchid has described best fits these fish. For convenience I numbered the fish 1-4 for taking photos and measurements.

Fish 1
Pectoral rays 12 on both sides
Anal fin rays 10 (plus of course the 3 spines all Lepomis species have)
Laterline scales 38
total length 105mm

Fish 2
Pectoral rays 12 on both sides
Anal fin rays 9
Lateralline scales 37
total length 108mm

Fish 3
Pectoral rays 11 (only counted one side because it was a live fish)
Anal fin rays 9
Lateralline scales 39
total length 92mm

Fish 4
Pectoral rays 12 (only counted one side because it was a live fish)
Analfin rays 9
Lateralline scales 38
total length 103mm

Unfortunately the only book I have that includes both species is Peterson's but I would be interested to see what counts are given for both species in either fishes of Mississippi or Alabama. The fish do not have any significant margin around the opercle flap which any dollar sunfish would have regaurdless of where they came from. The lateral line counts don't tell much because they fit well within the range given for either species. An anal fin ray count is only given for longears in Peterson's so that is not very helpful either. The one thing that keys out as dollar though is the pectoral fin ray counts. They should be (again going by peterson's) 13-14 for longear and 12 for dollar and I got 12 on three out of 4 and 11 on the 4th one. Again I would like to know what is given for counts in the two books I mentioned. These do appear to be mature fish at a rather small size, which is also odd for Longears but not unheard of. The Northern Longears that I am used to certainly are mature at a similar size to Dollar sunfish.

The big thing that keeps me from calling these Dollars is the lack of a margin around the opercle, this is afterall what dollar sunfish get their species name from. I also am unfamiliar with this lowland Miss. floodplain form of longear that Centrarchid described, which from his description matches these fish very well. They also look nothing like the western dollars I currently have from the SE part of Missouri. This would apparently explain why the habitat described by Daniel does not fit for most peoples typical thought of longear sunfish habitat.



Fish 1
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Fish 2
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Fish 3
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Attached File  IMG_5828.JPG   33.86KB   0 downloads

Fish 4
Attached File  IMG_5803.JPG   31.75KB   1 downloads
Attached File  IMG_5815.JPG   36.14KB   0 downloads

#35 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 06:17 PM

smbass,

Based on your photographs, that is definantly the guy I am talkiing about!!!

#36 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 06:19 PM

smbass,

Based on your photographs, that is definantly the guy I am talkiing about!!!

I also agree they distinct from the longear of the Missouri bootheel which is often drab in coloration as well.

#37 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 07:36 PM

The key in Fishes of Tennessee separates dollars and longears like this:

Dollar, L marginatus:
Black portion of opercular lobe with silver blotches in adults; pectoral fin rays usually 12; cheek scale rows 3-4; body profile somewhat rounded, the greatest depth usually beneath or behind the dorsal fin origin; body depth usually about 50% of SL.
In the text: lateral line scales 31-41; Pectoral fin rays 12 (11-13); Anal fin soft rays 9-10; Gill rakers 9-10. They also give dorsal fin ray counts.

Longear, L megalotis:
No silver blotches on black portion of opercular lobe in adults; pectoral fin rays usually 14; cheek scale rows 5-6; body profile slightly more elongate, the greatest depth usually before the dorsal fin origin except in largest specimens; body depth usually about 40-45% of SL.
In the text: lateral line scales 33-45; Pectoral fin rays 14 (13-15); Anal fin soft rays 9-10; Gill rakers 9-10. They also give dorsal fin ray counts.

So the cheek scale row count may be significant.


The same info to a lesser degree is in Fishes of Alabama and the Mobile Basin, Mettee, O'Neil & Pierson.


The key in Boschung and Mayden Fishes of Alabama states:

Dollar, L marginatus:
Membranous opercular tab short and with a pale green to white border; red streak along lateral line; pectoral fin rays 12 (sometimes 11 or 13); cheek usually with scales in 3 or 4 scale rows;
In the text: ... anterior dorsal profile steep, head acute; mouth small, maxilla not reaching past anterior margin of eye... lateral scale rows 34 to 41; ... anal fin rays 9 or 10...

Longear, L megalotis:
Membranous opercular tab with white (or red) border; no red streak along lateral line; pectoral fin rays usually 13 to 15 (usually 14); cheek usually with 5-7 scale rows (usually 6) -- yes, that's really how they worded it --
In the text: ...anterior dorsal profile steep; mouth moderately large, maxilla extending posteriorly to just past anterior margin of eye... lateral scale rows 33 to 45; ... anal fin rays 9 or 10...


In Inland Fishes of Mississippi, Ross, the only other character mentioned that's not mentioned above is:

Dollar, L marginatus:
...blue-green marks on lower sides of head broken up, appear almost as freckles...

Longear, L megalotis:
...blue-green marks on lower sides of head are more continuous...

#38 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 08:08 PM

smbass,

Could you look at my favorite, the gill rakers! I gonna knock mine out and look and make sure they are not spotted sunfish.

Yes, after looking, they have very short gill rackers. I do not think dicerning these animals from western dollars is the real problem. Both of my live specimens, which sadly are still both female, are slightly better than 6 inches long, well beyond even that of a male western dollar and they still retain the elongate shape of those in your images. They do have somewhat long opercular tabs for female longear and mine do not have the floppy rear edge the western dollar has.

Edited by centrarchid, 06 September 2008 - 08:28 PM.


#39 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 11:02 PM

It is interesting that in every case if you use the pectoral fin ray counts these fish would key out as dollars and not longears at all. The one thing that continuously keeps them form being dollars is the lack of the margin on the opercle. They are some odd longears indeed.

Thanks Mark for going through the books, I kinda figured you had them all and would be the one to do that.

I'd still like to hear Ray's opinion on these guys if you happen to be reading...

#40 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:05 AM

Brian, if you get bored :) maybe you could count the cheek scale rows?




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