I'm curious about these little guys. I originally posted a topic on trout that turned into a discussion of native New England fish that would be suitable for a ten gallon tank, this was one of the species that was brought up. I've looked around online, read about them on the forum here, and they sound pretty neat. I live in Southern New Hampshire/cenral Mass, and I've been an avid fisherman and canoeist since I was a kid, and somehow I don't think I've ever gotten a good look at one. They're all the more intriguing to me when i think about all the time I've seen poking around lakes, ponds, swamps, and rivers in New England. A healthy New England swamp is a beautiful environment, and one with which I considered myself relatively familiar. But as always, there is a lot more to learn.
Any suggestions on collection? Captive care?
Right now I'm thinking I would need a sandy substrate, with a piece of driftwood for structure, and a decent amount of live plants to recreate a swamp environment. How would I go about getting the water tannin stained without negatively affecting the water quality? Would a blackwater extract meant for tropical fish be any good? Or would I need to actually rot some vegetation in the tank?
Banded Sunfish Care
Started by
Guest_Marshall_*
, Oct 01 2008 03:24 PM
12 replies to this topic
#2
Michael Wolfe
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 01 October 2008 - 03:36 PM
Any suggestions on collection? Captive care?
Right now I'm thinking I would need a sandy substrate, with a piece of driftwood for structure, and a decent amount of live plants to recreate a swamp environment. How would I go about getting the water tannin stained without negatively affecting the water quality? Would a blackwater extract meant for tropical fish be any good? Or would I need to actually rot some vegetation in the tank?
Elassoma will not care about your substrate... they don't seem to spend much time there... drift wood or rock caves will allow them to establish little territories and make them feel more secure... and then you will see them more often... They do best in heavily planted tanks (as in so dense you can't really see through it... I keep mine in a tank just full of water lettuce, and they swim between the trailing roots of the plants... I haven't seen a real need for black water extract (although I assume it would work)... mine have been fine in normal water conditions as long as they have plenty of places to hide (form you and from each other) in the plants...
As far as collecting them goes, my best luck has been dipnetting in areas of thick floating plants... put your net underwater and come up underneath the plants scoop up everything and then sort out the Elassoma from the plants in your net... but you have to look carefully if you get into them, you can have 3 or 4 of them in a single net full (perfect dipnet sized net).
Happy hunting...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#3
Guest_mikez_*
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Posted 01 October 2008 - 04:24 PM
Enneacanthus obesus, the banded sunfish is a very hardy, adaptable fish. They will do well in almost any setup that provides good water quality and a few hiding places.
The setup you describe, sand substrate with a piece of driftwood and some plants would be perfect. Don't tell anybody I told you so, but plastic plants would work just as well.
Having said that, I do believe you get better coloration if you can keep the pH lower and the tannins a bit strong. Some of that will be provided by the driftwood. I add more by putting a stocking containing some peat moss [with a rock to sink it]. Some dry oak leaves in your filter or on the bottom helps too. Avoid putting peat directly in your filter because it impacts quickly and cuts way down on flow through. For awhile I experimented with using distilled water but my results were not worth the extra effort or expense.
Collecting them should be no trouble for you. You are in an area where they are not difficult to find. Marshy, slow moving tannic waters with lots of vegetation in that area will almost certainly have them. Drag a dip net through the thick weeds along shore, along the base of rocks and boulders also near shore, or even scoop up nets full of sunken leaves near shore. Are you seeing a pattern? Near shore is where they are. Right at your feet, in heavy cover.
Beaver ponds are particularly good places to try, especially as the rising water behind a beaver dam floods leaves and brush and turns woods into marsh. Juveniles will ride the crest of that rising water and will be in only inches of depth. This is how they invade vernal pools and are the first fish to colonize new swamps that the beavers make.
If you get some time, in the next month or so, and you have a tank set up and ready, let me know. I might be able to help you find some.
The setup you describe, sand substrate with a piece of driftwood and some plants would be perfect. Don't tell anybody I told you so, but plastic plants would work just as well.
Having said that, I do believe you get better coloration if you can keep the pH lower and the tannins a bit strong. Some of that will be provided by the driftwood. I add more by putting a stocking containing some peat moss [with a rock to sink it]. Some dry oak leaves in your filter or on the bottom helps too. Avoid putting peat directly in your filter because it impacts quickly and cuts way down on flow through. For awhile I experimented with using distilled water but my results were not worth the extra effort or expense.
Collecting them should be no trouble for you. You are in an area where they are not difficult to find. Marshy, slow moving tannic waters with lots of vegetation in that area will almost certainly have them. Drag a dip net through the thick weeds along shore, along the base of rocks and boulders also near shore, or even scoop up nets full of sunken leaves near shore. Are you seeing a pattern? Near shore is where they are. Right at your feet, in heavy cover.
Beaver ponds are particularly good places to try, especially as the rising water behind a beaver dam floods leaves and brush and turns woods into marsh. Juveniles will ride the crest of that rising water and will be in only inches of depth. This is how they invade vernal pools and are the first fish to colonize new swamps that the beavers make.
If you get some time, in the next month or so, and you have a tank set up and ready, let me know. I might be able to help you find some.
#4
Guest_jimv8673_*
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Posted 01 October 2008 - 06:09 PM
I agree with mike, i recently started keeping obesus and my only problem was shyness, experts such as mike advised me to add more fish (which i did i only had 2 in a 15 gal breeder now have 5) i added peat and oak leaves for water chemistry and like magic now they all are active as i thought they should be. And as mike says i currently have plastic plants but intend to add water lettuce asap 
. I have found that even someone as Native fish knowledge challenged as me can pick up enough here to be sem-successful.
. I have found that even someone as Native fish knowledge challenged as me can pick up enough here to be sem-successful.
Edited by jimv8673, 01 October 2008 - 06:11 PM.
#5
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 01 October 2008 - 08:18 PM
Sorry if I created confusion... I was relating my experience with Banded Pygmy Sunfish (Elassoma zonale)... seems I may have been thinking about the wrong fish...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#6
Guest_Marshall_*
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Posted 02 October 2008 - 03:48 PM
Having said that, I do believe you get better coloration if you can keep the pH lower and the tannins a bit strong. Some of that will be provided by the driftwood. I add more by putting a stocking containing some peat moss [with a rock to sink it]. Some dry oak leaves in your filter or on the bottom helps too. Avoid putting peat directly in your filter because it impacts quickly and cuts way down on flow through. For awhile I experimented with using distilled water but my results were not worth the extra effort or expense.
So would a pH of around 6 be about right? What about water hardness? As far as native fish go in general, are aquarium salts for tropical freshwater fish beneficial?
How does decaying vegetation like oak leaves or peat moss affect ammonia levels (and fish health) while cycling the tank? Or do the tannins leach out well before that becomes an issue?
If you get some time, in the next month or so, and you have a tank set up and ready, let me know. I might be able to help you find some.
Thanks for the offfer! I'm already committed to a tropical community tank that I've started with my room mates about a month ago. Unfortunately I didn't start looking into native fish keeping till after we already had a few fish. So far getting the tank cycled and adding fish has been a real learning experience. I'm looking at getting a native tank started next spring when the ice melts and I can collect fish.
#7
Guest_mikez_*
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Posted 02 October 2008 - 04:38 PM
So would a pH of around 6 be about right? What about water hardness? As far as native fish go in general, are aquarium salts for tropical freshwater fish beneficial?
pH of 6 would be perfect and would reflect the typical habitat obsesus is found in.
Water hardness would not have a huge effect on the fish but the increased buffering capacity would make your pH drift upward slightly. For this species, don't worry too much about it. If you have fairly low pH with lots of tannins, they will thrive.
How does decaying vegetation like oak leaves or peat moss affect ammonia levels (and fish health) while cycling the tank? Or do the tannins leach out well before that becomes an issue?
Have you ever seen a vernal pool full of sunken oak leaves and no inlet or outlet and no green plants? I have never actually tested ammonia or nitirite levels in such a pool but my guess is those numbers would be higher than most healthy aquariums. E. obesus is one of the few species that can and will survive in such an environment.
Now I'm not saying you can abuse them or skimp on bio-filtration, but don't worry too much about the oak leaves or peat moss.
Thanks for the offfer! I'm already committed to a tropical community tank that I've started with my room mates about a month ago. Unfortunately I didn't start looking into native fish keeping till after we already had a few fish. So far getting the tank cycled and adding fish has been a real learning experience. I'm looking at getting a native tank started next spring when the ice melts and I can collect fish.
Let me know when that time comes if you still are interested.
#8
Guest_Sombunya_*
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Posted 02 October 2008 - 09:51 PM
I'm not an expert by any stretch. I work in a water treatment plant and catch them at the inlet screens before the the birds and Raccoons do. Otherwise they go into a trash can with all the algae, moss and other floating debris.
The Bluegill I have live in tanks with plenty of fake plants to break up the line of sight because they are territorial. I use fake plants for ease of maintenance. When I was new and knew nothing about fish keeping I had the water tested: around 7 ppm Nitrites. They still looked good.
The water is typical, very healthy aquarium water. 25% water changes every week using Prime or API Stresscoat. I pay no attention to PH. The water supply at my house is ground water. I see no difference in their behavior if the water is 65 degrees or 85. They are always hungry!
These fish are strong and hearty. And very entertaining too.
The Bluegill I have live in tanks with plenty of fake plants to break up the line of sight because they are territorial. I use fake plants for ease of maintenance. When I was new and knew nothing about fish keeping I had the water tested: around 7 ppm Nitrites. They still looked good.
The water is typical, very healthy aquarium water. 25% water changes every week using Prime or API Stresscoat. I pay no attention to PH. The water supply at my house is ground water. I see no difference in their behavior if the water is 65 degrees or 85. They are always hungry!
These fish are strong and hearty. And very entertaining too.
Edited by Sombunya, 02 October 2008 - 09:54 PM.
#9
Guest_Nightwing_*
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Posted 02 October 2008 - 10:17 PM
I have one in my tank, tough as nails and very cool fish. A bit snippier then the black banded I also have, but maybe a bit tougher. FWIW, I found the blackbanded sunfish(I know, different species) to be FAR tougher and more adaptable then popular literature would have you think. Mine share a fairly hard water tank with darters and such, and are right at home(this goes for the banded sunfish as well).
You would do great with either species, and I think both are available from some of our vendors on here.
You would do great with either species, and I think both are available from some of our vendors on here.
#10
Guest_nativeplanter_*
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Posted 03 October 2008 - 04:20 PM
Have you ever seen a vernal pool full of sunken oak leaves and no inlet or outlet and no green plants? I have never actually tested ammonia or nitirite levels in such a pool but my guess is those numbers would be higher than most healthy aquariums.
My guess is that ammonia and nitrite would not be detectable with home aquarium equipment. The nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria are all around in the soil. I have noticed that soil-based tanks don't need to be cycled.
Interestingly, I have seen total N get higher in sediments in the center of Carolina Bays. This is because the water is anoxic about 30 cm below the surface. Ammonia and other nitrogens that sink to the bottom can not be transfomred to nitrite/nitrate. As such, no denitrification in the sediment.
#11
Guest_mikez_*
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Posted 05 October 2008 - 10:01 AM
My guess is that ammonia and nitrite would not be detectable with home aquarium equipment. The nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria are all around in the soil. I have noticed that soil-based tanks don't need to be cycled.
You're probably right about that. So the answer to Marshall's question about the leaves and water quality is still "Don't worry about it."
Interestingly, I have seen total N get higher in sediments in the center of Carolina Bays. This is because the water is anoxic about 30 cm below the surface. Ammonia and other nitrogens that sink to the bottom can not be transfomred to nitrite/nitrate. As such, no denitrification in the sediment.
Those Carolina Bays are a very odd habitat. To a northerners eye, from a distance, they look like any of the beautiful, productive lakes back home. Then you get close enough to see the dark red water. Attempts at fishing or netting turn up almost no fish life whatsoever. A pH in the low 5s and no green plants.
A New England vernal pool full of rotting oak leaves is a more fertile environment. That's why the E. obesus do so well when the beavers provide them with a means to invade. Of course eventually we get a dry year or two and the sunnies die off. Until next time.
Edited by mikez, 05 October 2008 - 10:02 AM.
#12
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Posted 05 October 2008 - 05:33 PM
They really do have a lack of fish. Most of them dry up on occasion, and since there is no inlet or outlet, very few things get established. Gambusia do, though. The dark water can be a bit spooky, especially in alligator country. Every sunken log that you bump into becomes an alligator! But what they lack in fish they make up for in amphibians.
Lots of Carolina bays actually have tons of green plants. The forested ones are, of course, rather sparse underneath. But the herbaceous ones have an amazing array of species. I did one of my master's degrees on plant distributions in the bays. The number of species I found, especially in the seed bank, was mind-boggling. Definitely on the top of my list as one of those awe-of-nature ecosystems.
Lots of Carolina bays actually have tons of green plants. The forested ones are, of course, rather sparse underneath. But the herbaceous ones have an amazing array of species. I did one of my master's degrees on plant distributions in the bays. The number of species I found, especially in the seed bank, was mind-boggling. Definitely on the top of my list as one of those awe-of-nature ecosystems.
#13
Guest_mikez_*
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Posted 05 October 2008 - 06:58 PM
Lots of Carolina bays actually have tons of green plants.
The only Carolina Bay I got to explore up close didn't seem to have any submerged plants at all. I assumed the water was too dark for light penetration.
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