Bluebreast Darter average length.

Hello,

I have a little statistics project coming up and I need some help.

In order to do this project I have to take a claim and test it to see if the claim is true.

Do any of you have access to any paper or claim that says anything about the average size of Etheostoma camurum?

This is a very rudimentary project, I just want to do something that involves me getting out and playing with fish, therefore I figured this would be easy and fun enough.

I am just looking for a claim that says the average length of Etheostoma camurum is.... therefore I can go out and take a small sample of total lengths and test it.

Thanks,

Blake

The various state books mention adult sizes. Mettee et al.'s Fishes of Alabama states that the adult size is 35 to 55 mm, and I'm sure the Tennessee book by Etnier & Starnes has a claim. The one literature source on the species is: Mount, D.I. 1959. Spawning behavior of the bluebreast darter, Etheostoma camurum (Cope). Copeia 1959: 240-243. I assume that this would also state adult size.

Check this one, is this what you're looking for

Virginia Virtual Aquarium

I think with the various state books you will get a range more often than a mean, which while still comparable doesn't sound like what you are trying to test. For example (Jenkins and Burkhead 2007 reprint) says adults are 35-60 mm standard length with a max in VA of 67 mm SL. Page (1983) reports 70 mm SL max. Trautman (1981) has adults usually 38-71 mm (no indication of measurement in the species account).

Thanks for the help already guys. This should get me heading in the right direction. Matt, you are right I am more or less looking for a mean instead of a range, but I will ask my professor and see if the range with suffice. Although, if anyone can find where someone claims the mean of E. camurum that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Blake

Thanks for the help already guys. This should get me heading in the right direction. Matt, you are right I am more or less looking for a mean instead of a range, but I will ask my professor and see if the range with suffice. Although, if anyone can find where someone claims the mean of E. camurum that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Blake

Blake:

You may need to check birthdates off their driver's licenses to make sure that juveniles don't skew your averages.

Also you'll need to check out a lot of environments to make sure that you sample adult males, adult females (that may hang out in different micro-environments) and juveniles.

Also, any published mean you find will itself be an estimate, of unknown accuracy and possibly influenced by unknown sampling biases.

And lengths of critters will probably have a very non-normal distribution, censored at the low end by zero. If you can't make a reasonable (supportable) case for the underlying distribution, you'd probably have to use non-parametric methods. (Don't remember much about those off the top of my head, but that chapter was a lot further into the book than the chapter on testing means.)

If you want a manageable statistics class project, stick to something where the population of interest is easily researched and definite. (Unless experience with the vagaries of collecting the data is the point of the exercise.) Published mpg and weights of cars, or something like that.

Then with all the time you save, and your "A" happily in the bag, you can go out and catch some fish just for fun.

my $0.02 (that's a long-term average, value to you may be randomly higher or lower.)

Thanks Doug for the input. However, like you mentioned collecting data is part of the exercise. I know counting the average number of baby carrots in a bag would be much easier, however I was more or less looking for something more interesting to myself and mabey to the class as well. I have already gone out and measured (around 20) Etheostoma camurum and in those twenty collected, it included adult males and females, and also one or two juveniles. You seem to know a good amount about Statistics, this is just an introductory class, however I am really enjoying it thus far (finally a math that seems practical).

Blake

Blake,

I have a bluebreast data from Ohio this fall (Scioto and Muskingum drainages), if you think the data would be of use, and your project isn't past due. There are 227 individuals from 9 localities. I measured total length to accomodate a characterization of year class size without much trouble for a quick live release. It may be what you need, if it's not too late (been on the run getting data, so I haven't had ANY Forum time to see this until just now ) PM me if you'd like that information.

To follow Bruce's comment, Etiner and Starnes gave 89mm for max length in F of TN from a specimen from the Holston. I don't recall if they gave that in TL or SL. I would suspect SL however.

Here's a 91mm total length specimen (note: he's in that Notho s-curve in the ruler photo). He'd be in the low 80's for SL, so perhaps not the largest ever recorded, but he's an absolute beefcake, none the less

 corn_fed_bluebreast.jpg   51.67KB   1 downloads

 Licking_bluebreast_male_91mm.jpg   48.78KB   1 downloads

The ladies are much smaller. Here's one that was 70mm TL.

 Licking_bluebreast_female_70mm.jpg   44.85KB   1 downloads

What's more fun is these specimens are from an undocumented population in the Licking River from Dillon Falls out into the Muskingum past the Y Bridge in Zanesville. Bluebreast were known from the Licking when Osburn came through in 1899. I suspect they're still on riffles in the Blackhand Gorge, but I didn't feel I had appropriate permits to look, as I wasn't sure if the State Nature Preserve was exclusively with regard to the relict plant community (which is fantastic!) or the ecosystem as a whole. In any case, the riffles are far enough away from Newark to avoid the eutrophication from the sewage issues that they may not have been locally extirpated. Regardless, I'll be going back once I put together my report for DNR, and obtain permission (and hopefully some money )

I also still have hope for the Miami Rivers as well, may check into that before ice-up. EPA boat shocked these same riffles on the Licking only weeks before I did and overlooked them (as e-boat are wont to do in these habitats with these species - this is not a criticism), which would have been the same methodology used on stream segments where they were found on the Stillwater and etc. and may have been overlooked by that methodology.

Todd

I actually found some data of my own recently from some Holston River specimens. Literally a small sheet of Rite-in-the-rain paper fell out of my Etnier and Starnes and it had scale counts and TL measurements. I'd say about 10 fish, nothing spectacular like 200.

It's totally a criticism Todd, and a very valid one at that! You've got to be willing to sacrifice your lower unit, prop, and potentially your electrode booms, while using e-fishing settings that aren't conducive to fish <100 mm. It's defiantely the reason why multi gear assessments, including shoreline sampling, trawls, nets, wading, are gaining popularity. It (the method) is what it is. We used to run a jet shocker over riffles on the Green to collect darters and it worked fantastically, but you've got to be willing to clean out your intakes and water system almost daily. Heck the one E. sand darter I remeber collecting out of the Mahoning (around RM 44 I believe) in 2003 ended up costing $100 (a new prop for a 9.9 HP Yamaha).

Yeah I don't think the expense justifies the discovery by destroying an e-boat... As you say, the multi-gear approach is best. For example, I'd never "one-man seine" for sucker, to contrast the point. It's workin' out killer for these riffles tho!

My mentioning it as "not a criticism" would, as you allude, have been better put as "constructive criticism", although I'm not sure that's how people will take it AS a criticism. So I'm going to go with the most cautious statement, allowing others to point out that it's constructive, and hopefully avoid stepping on toes. That's not my purpose, nor is glory for finding things, or some convoluted derivation of the ego. In publicizing the discovery, I'd just like to see more of an effort across all sampling biases to make a complete picture. I'm concerned that EPA might take it offensively (like "HA HA I found it where you didn't HA HA"), that's NOT what I want to have happen.

FWIW, I found a new population in Killbuck Creek as well (no huge surprise), but that one is more paramount, since it was in the area of the purple catspaw (which is way up from the Waldhonding), to which it's a host, and that's a real problem to not have identified the hosts at those sites. This is possibly why captive reared juveniles were being moved into the mainstem of the Kokosing... and consequently away from all those great food items that are coming down to them from the Killbuck Marsh!

Todd

It's totally a criticism Todd, and a very valid one at that! You've got to be willing to sacrifice your lower unit, prop, and potentially your electrode booms, while using e-fishing settings that aren't conducive to fish <100 mm. It's defiantely the reason why multi gear assessments, including shoreline sampling, trawls, nets, wading, are gaining popularity. It (the method) is what it is. We used to run a jet shocker over riffles on the Green to collect darters and it worked fantastically, but you've got to be willing to clean out your intakes and water system almost daily. Heck the one E. sand darter I remeber collecting out of the Mahoning (around RM 44 I believe) in 2003 ended up costing $100 (a new prop for a 9.9 HP Yamaha).

Good stuff Todd, what a thorough sample and more importantly I am glad you are discovering new locations.

Thanks,

Blake