The below link will provide you with information on research being conducted on Sacramento perch (Archoplites interruptus). Scroll down to the bottom of the page. http://www.ccmvcd.ds...osquitofish.htm

During my research I have documented an "Attachment Filament" in larval Sacramento perch. After hatch larvae are attached to the substrate (Spawn Tex) by a "filament" attached to the anterior area of the head. To the best of my knowledge no other centrarchid has this method of attachment. The only other species that has a similar type of attachment filament is the freshwater angelfish (Pterophyllum sp. and Symphysodon sp.). I have done a limited literature search but have not found any description of the filament in angelfish. Any comments/information are welcome.

Chris Miller

That is some wild stuff. Great photos of the larval Sac perch.

Exciting find!
It wouldn't be research if you already knew what you were going to find.

Did you go "What the Heck?" the first time you saw that?

Exciting find!
It wouldn't be research if you already knew what you were going to find.

Did you go "What the Heck?" the first time you saw that?

I did say to myself what evolutionary benefit would this structure provide larval Sac perch? Is this an example of convergent evolution (with Freshwater angelfish)? Is this an adaptation to reproduction in a floodplain envivonment? Since no other California native fish species (to the best of my knowledge) has this type of attachment method I am still tyring to figure this one out.

Sac perch are also the only Centrarchid known that does not provide parental care. Perhaps this filament provides a protective benefit in lieu of a protective father. By keeping the larvae out of the water column, perhaps they are spared higher predation pressure. Just a guess.

Sac perch are also the only Centrarchid known that does not provide parental care. Perhaps this filament provides a protective benefit in lieu of a protective father. By keeping the larvae out of the water column, perhaps they are spared higher predation pressure. Just a guess.

Are you certain no post fertilization parental investment? Seems filament not intended to keep larvae ( I call those with filaments prolarvae as still fueled by endogenous reserves) out of water column, but rather dispersed in vegetation. Otherwise prolarvae would tend to pile up in dead spaces making "more eggs in fewer baskets" and thus easier for some predators to locate and consume.

Are you certain no post fertilization parental investment? Seems filament not intended to keep larvae ( I call those with filaments prolarvae as still fueled by endogenous reserves) out of water column, but rather dispersed in vegetation. Otherwise prolarvae would tend to pile up in dead spaces making "more eggs in fewer baskets" and thus easier for some predators to locate and consume.

I've never observed them myself, but other biologists (Gross and Sargent 1985, Sargent et al. 1987) report less than one day of paternal nest tending by this species. This is compared to up to 4 weeks of care (sometimes biparental) given by largemouth bass. Good point about the vegetation, it is likely that the eggs would be suspended above the sediment in dense veg, rootwads, etc. This makes me wonder about the morphology of mud sunfish eggs...

I've never observed them myself, but other biologists (Gross and Sargent 1985, Sargent et al. 1987) report less than one day of paternal nest tending by this species. This is compared to up to 4 weeks of care (sometimes biparental) given by largemouth bass. Good point about the vegetation, it is likely that the eggs would be suspended above the sediment in dense veg, rootwads, etc. This makes me wonder about the morphology of mud sunfish eggs...

Mud sunfish. I am curious about it. How does one acquire some for research into their reproductive behavior in a tank setting? What I have heard indicates the males construct a typical sunfish nest by tail sweeping.

Despite not being particularly closely related to most of the other Centrarchids, I did not think they are as closely related to the Sacramento perch which sits way out in right feild from the rest of the Centrarchid clan. Therefore why suspect their eggs, prolarvae and larvae more similar to latter? Know something?

Mud sunfish. I am curious about it. How does one acquire some for research into their reproductive behavior in a tank setting? What I have heard indicates the males construct a typical sunfish nest by tail sweeping.

Despite not being particularly closely related to most of the other Centrarchids, I did not think they are as closely related to the Sacramento perch which sits way out in right feild from the rest of the Centrarchid clan. Therefore why suspect their eggs, prolarvae and larvae more similar to latter? Know something?

Cool, I hadn't heard anything about the nesting behavior of mud sunfish. Where did you find this?

Regarding the relationships of Centrarchidae, you may be citing a traditional hypothesis, which was heavily influenced by the abundant Archoplites-like fossils found in the west. Folks considered the Sacramento perch to be an ancestral branch, because we know it is closely related to the fossil forms, which are quite old. However, this relationship is not supported by morphology or DNA, when considered in a phylogenetic context. According to Near et al. (2003 & 2005), the mud sunfish is found at the base of the sunfish tree, while the Sac perch is nested in a group with Centrarchus, Ambloplites, and Pomoxis. This doesn't contradict the age of the western fossils or the divergence time of the Sac perch (~15 million years ago), but it suggests that the mud sunfish evolved much earlier (at least 30 mya). We just don't have the fossils to prove it. I'm sure you've read the article already, but for those who haven't, here is the link to Near et al. 2005.

http://forum.nanfa.o...c...ost&id=7049

So, with this in mind, it would be interesting to look at egg morphology in all sunfishes, to really understand if this filament is unique to Archoplites.

Cool, I hadn't heard anything about the nesting behavior of mud sunfish. Where did you find this?

Regarding the relationships of Centrarchidae, you may be citing a traditional hypothesis, which was heavily influenced by the abundant Archoplites-like fossils found in the west. Folks considered the Sacramento perch to be an ancestral branch, because we know it is closely related to the fossil forms, which are quite old. However, this relationship is not supported by morphology or DNA, when considered in a phylogenetic context. According to Near et al. (2003 & 2005), the mud sunfish is found at the base of the sunfish tree, while the Sac perch is nested in a group with Centrarchus, Ambloplites, and Pomoxis. This doesn't contradict the age of the western fossils or the divergence time of the Sac perch (~15 million years ago), but it suggests that the mud sunfish evolved much earlier (at least 30 mya). We just don't have the fossils to prove it. I'm sure you've read the article already, but for those who haven't, here is the link to Near et al. 2005.

http://forum.nanfa.o...c...ost&id=7049

So, with this in mind, it would be interesting to look at egg morphology in all sunfishes, to really understand if this filament is unique to Archoplites.

I do not remember original source concerning the mudsunfishes breeding behavior so it does not stand scrutiny. In other words total bunk without recorded observations.

Looks like the Sacramento perch has has evolved less parental investment post fertilization since diverging from the other sunfishes.

All the centrarchids I have worked with have eggs attached to substrate without stalks. This includes Lepomis spp., Pomoxis spp., Ambloplites spp. Micropterus spp. and fliers. The list is far from complete as I have only worked with species I have ready acces to in midwest.

The stalk attachment appears to be used in pro-larval Sacramento perch rather than eggs or larvae. The pro-larval versions of the previous species all pile up in a jumble within the nest below the paternal male.

I do not remember original source concerning the mudsunfishes breeding behavior so it does not stand scrutiny. In other words total bunk without recorded observations.

Looks like the Sacramento perch has has evolved less parental investment post fertilization since diverging from the other sunfishes.

All the centrarchids I have worked with have eggs attached to substrate without stalks. This includes Lepomis spp., Pomoxis spp., Ambloplites spp. Micropterus spp. and fliers. The list is far from complete as I have only worked with species I have ready acces to in midwest.

The stalk attachment appears to be used in pro-larval Sacramento perch rather than eggs or larvae. The pro-larval versions of the previous species all pile up in a jumble within the nest below the paternal male.

Right, pro-larvae, sorry, I was confusing this with another example.

Right, pro-larvae, sorry, I was confusing this with another example.

Do you know of anyone working with mudsunfish, especially indoors?

Do you know of anyone working with mudsunfish, especially indoors?

Centrarchid, I posted a new topic to follow up on mud sunfish.