Large Darter caught in Indiana

I just walked in the door from a little collecting trip in Southern Indiana. I caught a rather large darter I had never seen before, near the confluence of the Flatrock and Driftwood Rivers that forms the East Fork of the White River. It is about 5" long, definitely not a Log Perch, or a Greenside. (I apologize for not having much of a description here) It has an brownish olive olive tint. It seems to be some kind of Etheostoma Sp. In order to narrow down the identification process, can anyone tell me what very large Darters might inhabit these waters? When I get back to Cincinnati, I'll attempt to get a good photo of it.
Thanks,
-Thom
P.S. I caught a few Gambusia and some Northern Studfish too. I'd swear these Studfish look different than the ones I've caught elsewhere. Seems like they have a more stubbed off snout, and a little different coloration.

Might be a slenderhead darter, Percina phoxocephala?

 Muskingum_slenderhead_86mm.jpg   47.64KB   0 downloads

I think the only other option is going to be dusky darter, and I wouldn't describe them as olive.

Todd

Might be a slenderhead darter, Percina phoxocephala?

 Muskingum_slenderhead_86mm.jpg   47.64KB   0 downloads

I think the only other option is going to be dusky darter, and I wouldn't describe them as olive.

Todd

Thanks Todd,
It's definitely not a Slenderhead. It's pretty darned big; past the size that Peterson's gives for Slenderheads, and much more robust looking. I've also caught a gew Slenderheads, but nothing that looks as nice as your picture! When I looked up Dusky Darters, it seems more likely. They get big enough, and according to Peterson, I should expect them in fast gravel runs in small to medium rivers, sometimes near brush. This is precisely where I got him. I kicked under some snagged debris in a gravel run, and out popped the big boy. They describe them as Olive to dusky black above. This may be our suspect. Thank you Todd for the response.
-Thom

Todd,

Don't you have pictures of the monster dusky's we caught in the Duck?

Matt, no, unfortunately I don't have a good picture of those duskies or some of the absolute mongo mamas from the Tippecanoe. Perhaps this one will suffice:

http://gallery.nanfa...ter_01.jpg.html

Truf, as you see, it'll look like a huge blackside darter, except it won't have a distinct spot on the caudal base. See how the spot kinda bleeds on down? On a big specimen, they'll be dark all over dorsally with some counter shading from the midline down, fading into a dusky color on the abdomen. You would probably be able to make out the spot still, it'll just be darker than the rest of the coloration.

The other "olive" possibility in that area is a huge female spotted or bluebreast darter. But I think we're going the cigar shape route, no?

Thanks for you compliment on the picture. I wish you could get slenderheads to do that in a tank without the ol' Formalin Frosting trick

Todd

Matt, no, unfortunately I don't have a good picture of those duskies or some of the absolute mongo mamas from the Tippecanoe. Perhaps this one will suffice:

http://gallery.nanfa...ter_01.jpg.html

Todd, your idea of an inferior picture is my idea of an excellent picture. Your photography never ceases to amaze me, Todd. That slenderhead darter photo is excellent also. And the greenfin darter on the back of the latest American Currents is beautiful - incredible detail!

Matt, no, unfortunately I don't have a good picture of those duskies or some of the absolute mongo mamas from the Tippecanoe. Perhaps this one will suffice:

http://gallery.nanfa...ter_01.jpg.html

Truf, as you see, it'll look like a huge blackside darter, except it won't have a distinct spot on the caudal base. See how the spot kinda bleeds on down? On a big specimen, they'll be dark all over dorsally with some counter shading from the midline down, fading into a dusky color on the abdomen. You would probably be able to make out the spot still, it'll just be darker than the rest of the coloration.

The other "olive" possibility in that area is a huge female spotted or bluebreast darter. But I think we're going the cigar shape route, no?

Thanks for you compliment on the picture. I wish you could get slenderheads to do that in a tank without the ol' Formalin Frosting trick

Todd

Hmmmm.....
After looking at the above picture, now I'm not so sure. Since it It currently resides in a bucket in my mother's garage, I'll have to wait to get it home to examine it closer. I'll have to put him in my small photography tank and make a more thorough examination. When I try to look at him now, I have to pick him up, and he doesn't like that one bit.....a real fighter! I don't want to injure him with too much handling.
-Thom

If this helps here's a pretty good sized dusky from the Tippecanoe that sat in a dark bucket.
http://gallery.nanfa...e 1702.jpg.html

Edited by natureman187, 30 November 2008 - 06:39 PM.

Nice fish and pic!!!

There is an Etheostoma species that is found over there and not in Ohio... Could it be a Harlequin Darter? These look similar to a greenside or varigate in body shape but the colors are rather drab and they have a lot of dark blotches on their body. I know that at least 1 was found from the east fork of the white river last fall by another crew from MBI, unfortunately not the crew I was on so I have no pictures but I did get to be the one that possitively ID the preserved fish later.

There is an Etheostoma species that is found over there and not in Ohio... Could it be a Harlequin Darter? These look similar to a greenside or varigate in body shape but the colors are rather drab and they have a lot of dark blotches on their body. I know that at least 1 was found from the east fork of the white river last fall by another crew from MBI, unfortunately not the crew I was on so I have no pictures but I did get to be the one that possitively ID the preserved fish later.

Funny you should mention that. My sister, who knows nothing about fish really, asked to see a picture of a Harlequin Darter just today!

When I originally posted that I thought it was an Etheostoma species, I was going on memory from a relatively short observation of a wiggly fish in the field. Once I got it home to get a better look at him in a photo tank, and aftr comparing him to the picture Natureman posted, I'm pretty sure it is a big Dusky Darter. I took pictures, but wouldn't you know it, my camera batteries went south just as I was downloading the pics, and the spare batteries weren't charged. Now, I can't seem to find my charger! Blast! I'll post pictures as soon as I get some batteries. By the way, I measured him and he's about 4 1/4" to 4 1/2" long.

As I understand it, the harlequin darters are found in the big river segments, not up where he was at. I've not had one in hand, but from what I hear, the banding pattern is extremely distinctive, almost unforgettable. That, and if it were, we'd have to have this whole other thread to go through about knowing what you're taking home

Thanks for your compliments Ed. I felt quite honored to be a part of Mr. Scharpf's final issue. The body of work he's accumulated in this organization is priceless.

Todd

Yep, pretty much settles it. Dusky Darter.

Here are some really bad pictures in a dirty photo tank.

 Duskydarter_2.jpg   18.05KB   0 downloads

 Duskydarter_3.jpg   14.19KB   0 downloads

Yep, pretty much settles it. Dusky Darter.

Here are some really bad pictures in a dirty photo tank.

 Duskydarter_2.jpg   18.05KB   0 downloads

 Duskydarter_3.jpg   14.19KB   0 downloads

Yep, that's a dusky. Mine was peaceful, until I put a logperch in the tank that was slightly larger than it was. Then, it turned obnoxious.

yep, definitely a dusky.

As I understand it, the harlequin darters are found in the big river segments, not up where he was at. I've not had one in hand, but from what I hear, the banding pattern is extremely distinctive, almost unforgettable. That, and if it were, we'd have to have this whole other thread to go through about knowing what you're taking home

Thanks for your compliments Ed. I felt quite honored to be a part of Mr. Scharpf's final issue. The body of work he's accumulated in this organization is priceless.

Todd

2 Qs:
Do you mean they would the be found in the main channel of the White River, near the northern end where I was?
Are Harlequin Darters threatened or endangered in Indiana?

Harlequin darters are found in the very lower portion of the White River, not up where you were at. If you click through on this link, you can see a map under Distribution and read about their habitat in Ecology & Life History.

http://www.natureser...eostoma histrio

What I've gathered from a couple readings is the life history section overlooks noting their habit of living in adventitious streams... That is, in streams entering large rivers with a change of a couple stream orders or more (a second order stream flowing into a fifth order stream, for example). I would suppose there's a gear bias preventing finding them in the non-wadable mainstems, and perhaps that's what Brian's colleagues finally got around with their capture.

If you're familiar with the overlying geology, you'll notice they're quite associated with the alluvial plains (deltas). We've done a lot of farming in these areas, channelized those types of streams, so this is one species that's really had it suck.

With their limited distribution and these factors in Indiana, they're listed as Endangered.

It's a neat species and I hope to have one in hand before too long. I've been interested in these areas for conservation, and have done quite a bit of reading on them, as we have a similar overlying geology here in the Toledo area. However, I've stayed away from exploring these zones, mainly because I need more muddy ditches in my life like I need a hole in my head

Of related interest, since we're talking about these alluvial systems in big rivers, you all might be interested in reading a bit about how the Wabash jumped banks this summer and abandoned 6-9 miles (depending on who you ask) of channel.

Here's a good primer: http://www.courierpr...s-shift-wabash/

I'm trying to get the info and pics they took at ORSANCO this summer. This is going to be AWESOME sturgeon and blue sucker spawning habitat in 2009, I can't wait to see what they find (or be on the boat, if I can work it right )

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 02 December 2008 - 10:52 AM.

I hope to see what's going on with the Wabash next year. If anyone has plans on making a trip, please let me know if I can tag along.

On the E. histrio.....I really need to get some photos (this fish is native to my home state but I'd prefer to leave the single population alone).
If anyone has a good sampling location I'd be greatly appreciative.
I promise to catch, photo and release and keep the location private. Just PM me please.

The specimen taken last fall was in the east fork of the white not the main stem. Also Uland if you want I could probably hunt down the exact locality for you. I don't know how abundant they really are there though. It would be hard to draw a conclusion from that sample though because it was a boat e-fishing sample so not very effective for darters.

Harlequin darters are found in the very lower portion of the White River, not up where you were at. If you click through on this link, you can see a map under Distribution and read about their habitat in Ecology & Life History.

http://www.natureser...eostoma histrio

What I've gathered from a couple readings is the life history section overlooks noting their habit of living in adventitious streams... That is, in streams entering large rivers with a change of a couple stream orders or more (a second order stream flowing into a fifth order stream, for example). I would suppose there's a gear bias preventing finding them in the non-wadable mainstems, and perhaps that's what Brian's colleagues finally got around with their capture.

If you're familiar with the overlying geology, you'll notice they're quite associated with the alluvial plains (deltas). We've done a lot of farming in these areas, channelized those types of streams, so this is one species that's really had it suck.

With their limited distribution and these factors in Indiana, they're listed as Endangered.

It's a neat species and I hope to have one in hand before too long. I've been interested in these areas for conservation, and have done quite a bit of reading on them, as we have a similar overlying geology here in the Toledo area. However, I've stayed away from exploring these zones, mainly because I need more muddy ditches in my life like I need a hole in my head

Of related interest, since we're talking about these alluvial systems in big rivers, you all might be interested in reading a bit about how the Wabash jumped banks this summer and abandoned 6-9 miles (depending on who you ask) of channel.

Here's a good primer: http://www.courierpr...s-shift-wabash/

I'm trying to get the info and pics they took at ORSANCO this summer. This is going to be AWESOME sturgeon and blue sucker spawning habitat in 2009, I can't wait to see what they find (or be on the boat, if I can work it right )

Todd

Todd,
Thanks for the info. Looking over the distribution section on the Nature serve website for the Harlequin Darter, I noticed that it lists habitat right smack in the middle of Columbus Indiana (which is where I was). It listed Bartholomew County (Columbus IN), and the following creeks and rivers: Driftwood River, Flatrock River, Haw Creek, Upper East Fork of the White River. These are all converge right in the middle of Columbus Indiana. Seems like it would be Harlequin Heaven, yet when you look at the distribution map, these areas are not shown. Why would that be? Incidentally, it also lists the Muscatatuck River near Seymour Indiana, I just visited the Nature Reserve there two weeks ago. The section I saw looked more like a big, muddy, sandy, steep sided ditch than a river. Maybe other sections aren't so silted and muddy.