Sunfish from a Natural Lake in NW Ohio
#1 Guest_NateTessler13_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 10:26 AM
I was recently in Northwestern Ohio sampling a natural lake (one of the few in Ohio) with some forum members (farmertodd, schambers, among others). Among our catch in the new bag seine were some Sunfish sp. We pulled out a bigger Pumpkinseed for photos. After putting him in the photo tank and taking pictures, we started wondering whether or not this was a pure-bred at all. Looks to me like it's 90% a Pumpkinseed and 10% Green Sunfish or Bluegill. This natural lake has a population of Pumpkinseed, Bluegill, and presumably Green Sunfish.
Here's a shot of him:
In that first shot there, the mouth seems too big...more becoming of a hybrid. Plus, the tell-tale red patch on the opercular flap wasn't visible.
Another shot of the same fish:
This shot makes him look more like a pure-bred Pumpkinseed. What do you guys think?
#2 Guest_Dustin_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:18 AM
#3 Guest_natureman187_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:13 PM
#4 Guest_fundulus_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:42 PM
#5 Guest_Kanus_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:59 PM
#6 Guest_centrarchid_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 04:32 PM
#7 Guest_keepnatives_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 05:14 PM
#8 Guest_panfisherteen_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 06:13 PM
#9 Guest_fundulus_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 06:39 PM
#10 Guest_EdBihary_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:01 PM
#11 Guest_farmertodd_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:02 PM
I wouldn't go to the extent of doing percentages... I think that promotes some of the skepticism.
But I have no doubt in my mind that this fish is a cross. Esp when looking at the operculum. I can totally buy gibbosus x macrochirus.
Nate did you get a good pic of one of the larger male pumpkinseeds and/or bluegill? Or were holding out to allow this to blow fallow, and then post it?
Todd
#12 Guest_NateTessler13_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 09:08 PM
Looks like a cross between bluegill and pumpkinseed. I have some known F1 pumpkinseed x bluegill to harvest from pond shortly. If memory serves I will photograph and upload for comparison.
Nice, I'd like to see what those fish look like.
I think the mouth looks fine but agree the purplish mottling makes me suspect some bluegill influence.
Yeah. When purple gets tossed in, I instantly start leaning towards hybrid. It may be a fault in my ID tendencies, but it's usually right.
The fish looks very much like p-seeds from central New England, esp. SE Massachusetts in ponds like Maquan in Hanson and Furnace in Pembroke. Like most widespread species you'd expect a fair amount of population variability. P-seeds probably don't have as much as longears, but with their range and history of small populations recolonizing formerly glaciated terrain there's been plenty of time and opportunity for variation to develop.
Hmm...I buy that explanation, could be a function of variation. I'm just trying to categorize the photo, and I was thinking of using it for something at Bass Pro, but I want to be more confident it is a full-blown Pumpkinseed.
If that were the case, you would expect that variation to be expressed with greater frequency across an entire subpopulation than it was. This fish was completely different from every other pumpkinseed in the lake, all of which else were extremely similar.
I wouldn't go to the extent of doing percentages... I think that promotes some of the skepticism.
But I have no doubt in my mind that this fish is a cross. Esp when looking at the operculum. I can totally buy gibbosus x macrochirus.
Nate did you get a good pic of one of the larger male pumpkinseeds and/or bluegill? Or were holding out to allow this to blow fallow, and then post it?
Todd
Todd, I didn't take any photos of any other Pumpkinseed looking fish. I didn't take the time to explore them either. I picked through the net, saw a larger sized Lepomis and threw it in the bucket to be photo'ed. I should stay away from the percentages, you're right...but it just looks so darn close to the Pumpkinseed that I'm familiar with...
#13 Guest_smbass_*
Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:02 PM
I think that particular fish is a pumpkinseed x bluegill cross of some sort. I was fishing in Long Lake in NE Ohio 2 weekends ago and caught the following 3 hybrids...
This one is a similar cross to Nate's Nettle Lake fish appears to be a bluegill x pumpkinseed cross...
Bluegill_x_pumpkinseed_from_long_lake_May_2009_by_JZ.jpg 28.79KB 1 downloads
This one looks like it has quite a bit of redear in it but there is also some bluegill, notice the dark areas at the rear part of the dorsal and anal fins...
Bluegill_x_Redear_from_long_lake_May_2009_by_JZ.jpg 24.58KB 1 downloads
Last here is one you don't find naturally too often, notice the very large mouth. This guy looks to be a warmouth x bluegill hybrid. I actually kept this guy, anyone want a fin clip to proove me correct?
Bluegill_x_warmouth_from_Long_Lake_May_2009_by_JZ.jpg 26.91KB 3 downloads
And just so you can all see the difference here are two photos of actual pumpkinseeds...
male_pumpkinseed1_north_reservoir_portage_lakes_may_06_by_JZ.jpg 32.8KB 1 downloads
Male_Pumpkinseed_from_the_Pickerel_River_ON_06_12_07_by_BZ.jpg 43.33KB 1 downloads
#14 Guest_farmertodd_*
Posted 08 May 2009 - 09:11 AM
Yeah, I don't understand the skepticism either Brian. Esp after seeing Centrarchid's pictures of intentional crosses? That's pretty amazing to me.
Todd
#15 Guest_blakemarkwell_*
Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:07 AM
Blake
#16 Guest_NateTessler13_*
Posted 08 May 2009 - 06:33 PM
Edited by NateTessler13, 08 May 2009 - 06:34 PM.
#17 Guest_smbass_*
Posted 08 May 2009 - 08:04 PM
#18 Guest_Irate Mormon_*
Posted 12 May 2009 - 12:10 AM
#19 Guest_choupique_*
Posted 23 June 2009 - 09:18 AM
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