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Kankakee and tribs 5-10-09

Started by Guest_Uland_* , May 12 2009 10:56 PM

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#21 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 03:56 PM

Are rainbows without a bi-colored anal fin found with any regularity?

In the Licking (KY), where these two seem to be almost always sympatric in the smaller streams, yeah, I saw a lot of blue anal fins on rainbows. And I saw about the same amount of variation as you're showing here. I imagine there's a longitudinal zonation on the ranges of the two... The rainbows are found in the larger streams, the orangethroats are in the smaller streams, and the places of co-occurrence, I don't know if I could tell what the partition of habitat was. It's really sloppy in those bedrock lined streams, and they're too danged shallow to snorkel to see who is in the gravel and who is on the bedrock (a net is too big of scale to see it).

Look at the dorsal saddle markings on the male rainbows. Also think about these colors without blue, which I think appears black? Now do they look the same? Might be fun to manipulate some of these in Photoshop.

Todd

#22 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:06 PM

Here's an anecdote... I did an inversion on your pictures in PS. Do they look the same now? This might serve as an analog for what the fish actually see, not what we see.

Todd

#23 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:16 PM

Hrmm....well I took the Rainbow darter from the same day in the Kankakee posted in this thread (post # 4 at the bottom) and compared it to the same male you turned into a negative. They don't appear all that similar either.

#24 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:21 PM

In the Licking (KY), where these two seem to be almost always sympatric in the smaller streams, yeah, I saw a lot of blue anal fins on rainbows. And I saw about the same amount of variation as you're showing here. I imagine there's a longitudinal zonation on the ranges of the two... The rainbows are found in the larger streams, the orangethroats are in the smaller streams, and the places of co-occurrence, I don't know if I could tell what the partition of habitat was. It's really sloppy in those bedrock lined streams, and they're too danged shallow to snorkel to see who is in the gravel and who is on the bedrock (a net is too big of scale to see it).

Look at the dorsal saddle markings on the male rainbows. Also think about these colors without blue, which I think appears black? Now do they look the same? Might be fun to manipulate some of these in Photoshop.

Todd

I've found almost an almos identical situation to what Todd described in a few small tributaries to the Cumberland River in central TN. Some of the bi-color was literally made up of a few melanophores of or was almost obscured by the scales covering up the color at the fin attachment. I was agreeing with him based off of dorsal saddles and number of lateral bars. More crammed in towards the gill as you move forward in the rainbow.

#25 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 04:51 PM

If you want to get crazy with analyzing color, you can download the free program Image J from NIH. That will really pin down hue, density and brightness, in cahoots with some preliminary analysis with Photoshop. You can also define and compare body area covered with a certain color. Hopefully all of that would quantify differences between populations, or between species. Of course Uland would have to start photographing fish with a standard color bar in the corner for equilibrating color analysis, but maybe that could be built into the gray background? This would at least be an article in American Currents!

#26 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 05:07 PM

"One of these things is not like the other...."

Todd

Just for the record, I agree as well. Something weird is going on here, I guess this is one good reason to photograph multiple specimens of the same species in the same stream....

Blake

#27 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 10:14 PM

Mark and I then decided to drive across the river and East near the Indiana border to check out a stream that's been turned into a canal. In addition to the below, we found Ironcolor shiners, Least darters, Tadpole madtoms and Banded darters
We had a good day and I'm still hurting from all time we spent in the water.
Posted Image

#28 Guest_Clayton_*

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:29 AM

What is the fish in the second picture of your last post Uland?

#29 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:47 AM

I'm sorry, I completely forgot to label the last post.

From top to Bottom:

Esox americanus Grass Pickerel
Aphredoderus sayanus Pirate Perch
Ambloplites rupestris Rock Bass

That Rock Bass would not fit well in the small tank and I was too lazy to break out the large tank.

#30 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 04:23 PM

Since no one else has come out and said it I think those questionable orangethroats are Hybrids with rainbows. Your right Uland they are out of the ordinary but I would not call them rainbows either. That male #3 looks a lot like some of the hybrids I posted which were actually confirmed genetically as hybrids between rainbows and orangethroats. Here is a photo of one of them that I have posted before...