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GRASS PICKEREL

Started by Guest_smbass_* , May 31 2009 03:46 PM

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#21 Guest_Grasspickerelsarethebest_*

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 08:48 PM

Alright I have a ten and a 20 but it isn't a long

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#22 Guest_acamp_*

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:46 PM

Thank you. Can I have two pickerel,a crawfish,and one madtom in an 40 gallon tank. Also do they smell bad? When I told my Mom I wanted to get a pickerel she told me that she didn't want to deal with another smelly animal. What kind of lighting do they need. What kind of plants should I out in their cage?

Edited by acamp, 10 January 2012 - 04:55 PM.

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#23 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 05:24 PM

Also do they smell bad? When I told my Mom I wanted to get a pickerel she told me that she didn't want to deal with another smelly animal. What kind of lighting do they need. What kind of plants should I out in their cage?

Fish do smell bed if their water is dirty. They don't like that any more than you do, and they are more likely to get sick if their water is smelly.

A clean fish tank does not smell. You should fully cycle the tank before adding fish to it. It is a process that takes five weeks if you do not have an established tank to take a small starter population of bacteria from.
Here is an image: http://www.fishkeepi...cle_diagram.jpg

The 'cycle' is this:
You add fish food to the tank. This fish food contains proteins, a major component of which is nitrogen. This nitrogen is degraded by the fish's digestive track and excreted as ammonia, NH3. Ammonia (NH3) is very toxic, and will kill fish at as small a concentration as 2 parts per million (ppm). Nitrite (NO2) is less toxic than ammonia, and nitrate (NO3) is less toxic than nitrite. Because of this, the bacteria that degrade ammonia first into nitrite and then into nitrate are considered 'beneficial'. These beneficial nitrosomonas bacteria start out small in number. It takes them time to divide and grow in population. During the time in between when you first start adding food and when the population grows large enough, they won't be able to keep up with the ammonia generated by the degraded food. During this time, there will be a significant concentration of ammonia, usually around 5 ppm. At this time, the tank is considered 'uncycled'. Any fish that you add to the water would experience painful, permanent gill burns because of the ammonia and probably die. That is why, for the first five weeks after you add water to a new tank, you don't add fish. Instead, you feed the tank every day with fish flakes and run the filter as if there were fish in it. The food will degrade and the beneficial bacteria will grow in number. After about five weeks, there will be enough bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate instantly. If you measure the water during this process, you will see an initial rise in ammonia. Then stage 2 is when nitrite starts to rise and ammonia starts to fall. In stage 3 nitrate starts to rise and nitrite starts to fall. Stage 4 is when ammonia and nitrite are at 0 ppm and nitrate is continually rising. Any fish food you add at this point and beyond will not sit in the water as ammonia, but will only be measurable as nitrate, as the hungry bacteria convert it quickly. At this point the tank is completely 'cycled' and you can add fish.
Picture: http://www.fishkeepi...cle_diagram.gif

Please note that although nitrate is not as toxic as ammonia, it is still not good to have it above 30 ppm or so. You will need to find a way to get rid of the nitrate. In the wild, the reason why it is called a nitrogen 'cycle' is because it is a true cycle. The plants that were eaten by the fish as food are the exit path for the nitrate out of the water column. Aquatic plants use nitrate and ammonium as food to grow their new leaves, stems, roots, and flowers. In the home aquarium, aquatic plants can also be used to get rid of nitrate. But, you must still measure your tank with a test strip and monitor it. If your plants aren't growing fast enough to eat all of the nitrate, or if you don't have live plants, do a water change every time the nitrate threatens to rise above 30 ppm. Usually this is a 1/4 to 1/3 water change once a week. I'm not sure what everybody else does. I do a 1/3 water change once a month myself, because the rate of nitrate production is actually less than the rate of nitrate being eaten by plants in my tank, and nitrate never rises above 10 or 20 ppm no matter how long it's been since I've done a water change. Plants are your friends. If you have a lot of them, and if you feed them good full spectrum light and high nutrient substrate, they will grow and clean your tank for you. And they're pretty. AGA contest: http://showcase.aqua...10/index0b.html

If you follow my advice, your fish tank will not smell. Long term. Usually during cycling the ammonia smell is a little bit noticeable. To please your mom, you might want to stick a live aquatic plant in the tank when you initially set it up. Growing plants will use the ammonium as food, which will decrease the smell of the cycling tank.

What kind of lighting do they need. What kind of plants should I out in their cage?

Full spectrum. Plants can't absorb all light, only the light that falls between 400-500 and 600-700 nanometers in wavelength. Here is the chlorophyll absorption spectrum: http://upload.wikime...ab_spectra2.PNG
That's why. Do you see how there are only peaks in certain regions? That's what chlorophyll can absorb. Do you see how from 500-600 nm the value is almost zero? Chlorophyll can't absorb that light. So you need light bulbs rated 'full spectrum' to make sure they're not just emitting light in the unusable region. Your eyeballs can't see what spectrum a light has. 'White' light can be made from many different combinations of wavelengths.

Now, full spectrum bulbs can be placed in many different light fixtures. You don't necessarily have to shop at an overpriced pet store to buy your fish tank light. I bought mine from Home Depot, myself. Because my tank is 4 feet long, I use this model: "Lithonia Lighting All Weather 4 Ft. 2 Light T8 Fluorescent Unit Shop light" http://www.homedepot...ight-38672.html
I rest it on the top of the aquarium and it works very well. Two of them overlap one another and fit perfectly to prevent any fish from jumping out. Here are some pictures:
What one lighting fixture looks like: http://img.photobuck...imiru/039-1.jpg
What both look like: http://img.photobuck...imiru/013-2.jpg and http://img.photobuck...imiru/018-4.jpg
That was during the day, though. Here's a video of one of the lights tilted up and at night, so you can see how powerful they are: youtube.com/watch?v=RTA7y9Tns5M

I also use non-aquarium lights on my 10 gallon tank, and again with full spectrum bulbs. It works great. Here are some pictures:
Just one on, so you can see how I taped the edges: http://img.photobuck...imiru/006-6.jpg
Both lights:
http://img.photobuck...imiru/004-4.jpg
http://img.photobuck...imiru/003-4.jpg
http://img.photobuck...imiru/014-5.jpg

You can use any light you want on your aquarium. It doesn't have to be one sold just for the fish hobby. Buying your lights at a home improvement store rather than a pet store can save you a lot of money.

What kind of plants should I out in their cage?

Whatever plants you want. I like rooted plants myself, so I use a substrate with lots of nutrients in it so plants can dig in and grow healthy roots. The pea gravel sold at aquariums is pure silicon dioxide, and lacks the iron, calcium, magnesium, and other nutrients that plants need to grow well. Sand is pure silicon dioxide as well. So if you want to grow plants you can either go to a pet store and spend $50 filling the tank up with special Fluorite™ aquarium substrate by Seachem Co., or you could go with one of the two much cheaper routes of soil or kitty litter. Here, click this link and scroll down to the numbers: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html
You will see that both soil from your backyard and additive-free kitty litter (that is just pure baked ground clay) have just as many nutrients as the expensive Fluorite™. They're both relatively cheap. Soil you dig up from your back yard and then cover in either sand or gravel, so that it doesn't turn to mud in your tank. Kitty litter you just buy for $4 for a 25 pound bag at any local grocery store. Remember to get the additive free kind; you don't want clumping chemicals. I use kitty litter myself, because I like how it doesn't need a capping layer. It will be dusty the first couple days if you dump water on it, though. Be gentle; fill the tank by pouring water into a big pot that is sitting on the kitty litter. Don't pour water onto the kitty litter itself.

With a nutritious substrate and full spectrum lights, there's no plant you can't grow. Or at least I haven't found any that I couldn't grow yet. Check out aquabid.com's plant section for species pictures and ideas. Liveaquaria.com is also a good source, sweetaquatics.com is another, and so is aqmagic.com. You can also collect plants from around where you live, but I'm not sure what kind of license you'd need. North American native plants are pretty cool, though. Myrophyllum pinnatum is so fuzzy ^_^

Edited by EricaWieser, 10 January 2012 - 05:54 PM.

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#24 Guest_acamp_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:37 PM

What temperature do they live in?

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#25 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:52 PM

temperature is not real important they can live in anything from 34-90 F

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#26 Guest_acamp_*

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:47 PM

temperature is not real important they can live in anything from 34-90 F

ok thanks

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#27 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:33 PM

Whatever plants you want. I like rooted plants myself, so I use a substrate with lots of nutrients in it so plants can dig in and grow healthy roots. The pea gravel sold at aquariums is pure silicon dioxide, and lacks the iron, calcium, magnesium, and other nutrients that plants need to grow well. Sand is pure silicon dioxide as well. So if you want to grow plants you can either go to a pet store and spend $50 filling the tank up with special Fluorite™ aquarium substrate by Seachem Co., or you could go with one of the two much cheaper routes of soil or kitty litter. Here, click this link and scroll down to the numbers: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html
You will see that both soil from your backyard and additive-free kitty litter (that is just pure baked ground clay) have just as many nutrients as the expensive Fluorite™. They're both relatively cheap. Soil you dig up from your back yard and then cover in either sand or gravel, so that it doesn't turn to mud in your tank. Kitty litter you just buy for $4 for a 25 pound bag at any local grocery store. Remember to get the additive free kind; you don't want clumping chemicals. I use kitty litter myself, because I like how it doesn't need a capping layer. It will be dusty the first couple days if you dump water on it, though. Be gentle; fill the tank by pouring water into a big pot that is sitting on the kitty litter. Don't pour water onto the kitty litter itself.

My experiance with Kitty Litter was awful. It was the most stressful time in my 3 years of fish keeping. If your fish EVER interact with the substrate in the slightest, then don't put kitty litter in your tank.

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#28 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:45 PM

If your fish EVER interact with the substrate in the slightest, then don't put kitty litter in your tank.

Yeah, burrowing fish that stir up dust aren't really a good match for uncapped kitty litter, sand, soil, or other fine substrates. You can put a capping layer of gravel on top of whatever they stir up to prevent murky water if it starts being a problem. Personally, I've never had to do that.

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#29 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:42 AM

Yeah, burrowing fish that stir up dust aren't really a good match for uncapped kitty litter, sand, soil, or other fine substrates. You can put a capping layer of gravel on top of whatever they stir up to prevent murky water if it starts being a problem. Personally, I've never had to do that.

That's exactly what I thought to, so I capped it with a few inches of sand and gravel and it's still causing problems.

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#30 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:25 AM

That's exactly what I thought to, so I capped it with a few inches of sand and gravel and it's still causing problems.

The fish are getting through inches of gravel to disturb the kitty litter? ??? How deep is this gravel?

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#31 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:16 PM

The fish are getting through inches of gravel to disturb the kitty litter? ??? How deep is this gravel?

They aren't disturbing it much, but the nutrients and dust that it leaches out are causing problems. It's impossible to grow plants in the tank from all of the dust created by the kitty litter, but it has such a high amount of nutrients that algae is EVERYWHERE! Once my driftwood is waterlogged I'll be doing something similiar to what Frogwhacker did here: http://forum.nanfa.o...3341#entry93341

Edited by Yeahson421, 14 January 2012 - 01:18 PM.

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#32 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:22 PM

They aren't disturbing it much, but the nutrients and dust that it leaches out are causing problems. It's impossible to grow plants in the tank from all of the dust created by the kitty litter, but it has such a high amount of nutrients that algae is EVERYWHERE! Once my driftwood is waterlogged I'll be doing something similiar to what Frogwhacker did here: http://forum.nanfa.o...3341#entry93341

Interesting. I've heard one other person say that their kitty litter dust wasn't settling, even a week after setup. He never got back to me with tank pictures, so I'm still not sure why he was having that problem. What's causing all of your dust? It shouldn't just be floating up from the ground, especially if you have it under inches of gravel. Do you have any pictures?

Also, just as the high regional variation in kitty litter means that you're not guaranteed to get a low phosphate batch, the same is true with soil. Your soil substrate could also have, as you put it, very high nutrients. Just a heads up that it can happen.

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#33 Guest_frigginchi_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:09 PM

I use ADA Aquasoil Amazonia II and Azoo Plant Grower. I like the Azoo better because there is no ammonia spike.

http://www.azoopalm....ower-bed-black/

http://www.adana-usa...products_id=100

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#34 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:57 PM

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_12_21&products_id=100

Oh my goodness it's $36 for 9 liters. *gasps*

Okay, there's different social classes amongst us fishkeepers. I'm kinda poor, so it looks like I'll be sticking with my $4 for 25 pounds kitty litter.

Edit:
I also realize this is a grass pickerel topic, so I'm not going to post on it any more about substrates. Sorry everyone

Edited by EricaWieser, 14 January 2012 - 05:01 PM.

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#35 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:53 PM

Interesting. I've heard one other person say that their kitty litter dust wasn't settling, even a week after setup. He never got back to me with tank pictures, so I'm still not sure why he was having that problem. What's causing all of your dust? It shouldn't just be floating up from the ground, especially if you have it under inches of gravel. Do you have any pictures?

Also, just as the high regional variation in kitty litter means that you're not guaranteed to get a low phosphate batch, the same is true with soil. Your soil substrate could also have, as you put it, very high nutrients. Just a heads up that it can happen.

Mine wasn't dusty for just a week, but 3 months! It took 6 filters to clear it up! Water changes only made the situation worse because the slightest disturbance would release a monstrous cloud of dust.

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#36 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:11 PM

Mine wasn't dusty for just a week, but 3 months! It took 6 filters to clear it up! Water changes only made the situation worse because the slightest disturbance would release a monstrous cloud of dust.

That sounds extremely suspicious to me. I've set up nearly a dozen tanks now with kitty litter and have never, ever had the dust take longer than a day or two to clear out. If you would like to continue this conversation with me in private message, we won't derail the grass pickerel thread any more. Do you blow a powerhead jet onto the substrate or something? What filter media are you using? Send me a private message and I'll try to you help you figure out what the problem is.

Edited by EricaWieser, 14 January 2012 - 07:14 PM.