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elassoma hybridization

Started by Guest_skalartor_* , Aug 07 2009 12:51 PM

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14 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:51 PM

just wanted to ask whether elassoma species do hybridize? is there any reason to not keep e. okefenokee and e. evergladei together in a tank?

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#2 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:10 PM

just wanted to ask whether elassoma species do hybridize?

Almost anything is possible. I have caught E. zonatum and E. evergladei together. I've never been able to spend much time in these locations and I'm an untrained eye, but I've never experienced hybridization in the wild.

is there any reason to not keep e. okefenokee and e. evergladei together in a tank?

In the wild and at home are two different things though...Personally, I would not keep the two together just to prevent territorial issues. I certainly would not keep them together if I wanted to breed.

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#3 Guest_fritz_*

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 04:44 PM

Some years ago, a couple of German aquarists took back some E. boehlkei and okatie. They did hybridize for them but then are very closely related. In a confined situation it's possible that okefenokee and evergladei could also if they had no other choices.

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#4 Guest_Elassoman_*

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 01:19 PM

Elassoma evergladei and Elassoma zonatum will hybridize occasionally. I've found evidence for very old hybridization in a Florida population, as the fish are basically E. zonatum with E. evergladei mitochondria. I've also found morphological intermediates in other populations, so it looks like it still happens every once in a while. I've not noticed intermediates anywhere I've collected E. evergladei and E. okefenokee together, but I suppose it is possible. I would discourage anyone from attempting to hybridize these species in captivity.

Edited by Elassoman, 10 August 2009 - 01:23 PM.

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#5 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 08:33 AM

hi together,
just in case someone is interested in this: i spoke to Jörg Bohlen, he is one of germany's biggest elassoma-expert, and his friend arne nolte who is engaged in this topic, too. both together wrote an article (in german, sorry) that says that they could not detect any hybridization between e. zonatum, okefenokee and evergladei. males of each species would try to mate females of every species, but since it's a female-choice-system females separate between different males. maybe that is because of the different coloration (blue irridescent, dark bars...). in contrast to this, other species of pygmies, not existing in the same habitats, would hybridize. arne nolte told me that he would have had a 65 gallon tank with populations of e. evergladei, okefenokee and zonatum. they all would not have mixed up in a few years time. nolte further claimed that these species would even separate in the tank, everyone preferring different zones (plants, dead leaves, woods...). if anyone is interested i can help with source of the german original version of the article described.
torben

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#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:14 AM

I would be interested in seeing that article. Could you see if you have permission to share it here?

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#7 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:45 AM

I think it would be interesting to try this same experiment with more closely related species like okatie/boehlkei or okefenokee/gilberti. I suspect these would hybridize regularly since they are more likely divergent ESU's without the obvious coloration differences found in, say, evergladei/zonatum.

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#8 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:48 AM

Another member here told me he had E.gilberti and okatie hybridize (unintended). Like many cichlids, I suspect the females prefer a male of their own species, but if she's ready to go and can't find Mr. Right (or Mr. Right is subordinated by Mr. Wrong in an aquarium) then she'll spawn with whoever she can.

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#9 Guest_fritz_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:59 AM

A number of years ago, several Germans (who's names I've forgotten) came through the Carolinas and took back okatie and boehlkei. They got them to hybridize which is not a big surprise as both Dustin and Gerald have pointed out.

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#10 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:31 PM

Ok, so I have a tank right now (10) gallons with zonatum and I wanted to switch over a 33 gallon XL (48x12) into a elassoma tank. Based on that information above, I could add both everglades and okee's with my zonatum's all in this tank without fear of hybridization? this would be something to ponder a little bit more before pulling the trigger as my zonatums are doing good on their own (would probably add some of their young into the 33 instead of the adults)

Thanks for this info.

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#11 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:38 PM

Ok, so I have a tank right now (10) gallons with zonatum and I wanted to switch over a 33 gallon XL (48x12) into a elassoma tank. Based on that information above, I could add both everglades and okee's with my zonatum's all in this tank without fear of hybridization? this would be something to ponder a little bit more before pulling the trigger as my zonatums are doing good on their own (would probably add some of their young into the 33 instead of the adults)

Thanks for this info.

If you are going to give away any offspring and identify them as a specific species, then I wouldn't put them together. If not, then it doesn't really matter.

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#12 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:51 PM

good point! I won't cross cross them, will just clear out two new 10's and move those fish into that 33 then

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#13 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:00 PM

I know Arne Nolte - he and his GF came to Mississippi several years ago to do some collecting and he contacted me to show him around. He also visited BG. He was interested in Pygmies at that early date - the only thing we have here in MS is E. zonatum, but we did have fun collecting other stuff up around Yazoo City. I always wondered if he pursued his ambitions - it appears that he did.

Wow, that takes me back - that was maybe 15 years ago.

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#14 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 05:30 AM

nice to have so many answers. i'm not very sure if i am allowed to share it, it's published in a book called "Fortpflanzungsbiologie der Aquarienfische - Band 2". tomorrow i will be able to get access to it again and then i will at least tell you about the key hypothesis (as far as i haven't done already).
torben

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#15 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 12:46 PM

sorry for this late answer.
but in fact i can't add anything to what i have mentioned before. except of the fact that both authors try to support their arguments by claiming that no hybrids were found in nature so far. i'm not sure if that's still true, i guess there are more involved elassoma-experts found here.