Trout & Natives

The issues is this: it is illegal to intentionally harass a threatened or endangered species. If you catch one, you are required to release it immediately. No photos, no holding it in a bucket for your pal to see, just immediate release. Sure you can be happy that you saw one. But you have to let it go ASAP.

Maybe some folks didn't realize that. But now they do. So, in the future, let's remember that saying "I hope to catch a T&E species, photo, and release" is saying that you plan on breaking the law. Whether you do so or not, NANFA can't be associated with it and it should not be discussed on the forum. Otherwise, NANFA could be accused of encouraging this activity. So when it does come up, we have to say something about it to discourage others from doing so.

Also remember that various agencies have been monitoring the forum to be sure that people aren't breaking laws. They just might get upset enough to slap a fine on somebody. But perhaps even more importantly, some people who are members of NANFA work for agencies that are charged with protecting our natural resources. Discussions on the forum about intentional harassment puts them in a very awkward position.

You make a very good point and thank you for not being immature. Ok, so if it's illegal to do anything with a T&E fish, I can still be glad to see one and hope to find one. Is hoping to see one illegal?

Now we know the laws, and I've tried to enjoy this hobby while following the laws as best I can.

Also, I realize that some do work for agencies etc... and that their jobs may be to protect fish, but that doesn't mean that one person should be publicly harrassed the way that I have, this time and before. These matters should be done privately. I don't know what certain people have against me, but I've never done anything wrong and try to be helpful and insightful while enjoying this hobby. Everytime I post anything, I get jumped on and harrassed. I didn't see anybody harrassing Uland over the Cumberland Arrow Darter photos he posted, but yet the first time I posted mine, it was deleted. Handling matters in this way can really deter new people, and some that have been here (myself), from wanting to enjoy this hobby and being involved in this organization.

I don't think anyone means to intentionally harass you, and I know Matt isn't trying to. Sometimes things we type over the internet and email don't come out sounding the way they would in casual conversation, and they can be easily mis-interpreted. I've been guilty of that before myself. Happens all the time - that's why we even have the term "flame war". I think if many of such conversations had been held in person, there would have been congeniality all around.

Anyway, we have been handling much of what we can publicly, so that others can learn too. We all make mistakes, and it's OK to have them pointed out - happens to me too. Otherwise, we'd be left wondering if the whole thing should be deleted so that nobody misunderstands and does the same thing. Don't really want to do that, either. It's tough to handle either way. Everybody's only human, and can't handle things perfectly every time. But we try to do our best.

I understand both points of view, however, this is a public forum that is suppose to remind its members of the laws. The fact is this is the law, not a matter of opinion (even though I might have one ).

Best,
Blake

Edited by blakemarkwell, 27 August 2009 - 11:16 AM.

Good golly I don't know where to begin

Josh, I can't speak for others but I believe you and I are interpreting comments in this topic completely differently.

I don't believe mattashton, fundulus or nativeplanter are harassing you in any way. I believe they are performing a valuable service to NANFA by as gently as possible reminding yourself and others of a very important part of the NANFA code of ethics...the first line in fact. It reads:

NANFA Members who collect native fishes from the wild and maintain them in private aquaria are encouraged to comply with the following Code of Ethics:

• It is the responsibility of NANFA members to acquaint themselves with, and abide by, the collecting, fishing and fish transfer regulations of each Country, State or Province in which they collect, transfer, or ship fish.

I honestly don't see what's so confusing about the concern here.... Possessing any federally protected critter is a no no and the fine folks here are trying to prevent a potentially ugly scenario. While incidental capture and ID might not be legal, it isn't always unethical.

Warning: An unwarranted lecture on a hypothetical will follow....
It has been published for the world to see, a federally protected critter is in pursuit. For the sake of this hypothetical, you agree it's not wise to pursue this or other federally protected fish. Down the road you find yourself in a tiny stream and accidentally stumble upon the federally protected critter in question but are unsure of it's ID. You decide to photograph it to obtain an ID. While photographing, you are encountered by a F&W officer....BTW in my experience they will make the necessary calls to get the information to do their job....The F&W officers call in the location to their superior who know of the federally protected critters in the area and they notice you happen to have some in your possession. Another aside....the Kentucky official mentioned previously is registered on this forum.... Considering all of the previous information in this hypothetical, it would be very uncomfortable explaining this to the officers.

Josh, the people you feel are harassing you are merely trying to prevent the above hypothetical.

About my photos.....Do I want to take lots of fish pictures? I sure do! Do I want to take photos of every single native fish? I'm not quite sure....In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a concern for evaporating species but this isn't a perfect world and permits are hard to get. I can say without hesitation that I follow the law and have the necessary permits/license to take all of my photographs. I say this without knowing the specifics of your darter photo in question. All I have is my name...a reputation if you will to do what is both legal and ethical.

Please don't be discouraged about the hobby. I can assure you I was not born with the permits I have to photograph fish. It wasn't easy and I kept at it until I gained the trust to do what is both legal and ethical. I want to encourage you to get the necessary permits to perform the activities you enjoy. In my opinion, you will be more likely to get the permits by gaining the trust of those would issue the permits.

Uland,

Thanks for your responce and as we've discussed before in pm's I know that you have proper permits. I was just using you as an example because of one particular fish, arrow darter. You called me out when I was a newbie and wasn't familiar with laws/regs but we discussed it though pm's.

I now see that there are other laws in effect and I'm not wanting to prevent anyone of speaking the laws. I'm fine with somebody pointing out mistakes.

BUT, I'm not going to sit here and let another member walk all over me for the 4th time and call me names. I don't care what he says, but I was pointed out and refered to as dumb, publicly on this forum and NANFA shouldn't support this action just as they don't support unethical collection.

I'm going to continue with derail, because it doesn't seem the wishes of the Moderators are sinking in.

The only thing I've read that moderators say can't be photographed are species in which a permit is required to handle. I don't know how that turned into "no pictures", but that's all that is being said.

Why are they saying this? This stuff is for real. I almost lost my Ohio Permit this summer because of something I said on a Forum this spring about an Ohio Threatened species (and not even an Ohio population). It worked out in the end, but it ended up costing me host of lost productivity. It could have ended up much less favorably for me if Enforcement weren't reasonable and gracious people who understood I had only made a profound and arrogant mistake, and there was no real threat.

Now think about that... I'm producing data and education in the context of a university that they agreed previously is valuable to them, and I still had to seriously back peddle for a situation that I arrogantly created for myself. You may feel you're making a similar worthwhile contribution, but if you don't have a permit, you haven't checked with the people who make THAT decision.

It doesn't matter if it's B.S., if someone else precipitated the push toward extinction (including the DNR) that made it rare, or if it's in the best interest of that species for you to show the world how beautiful it is. It is unlawful for you to knowingly be in the HABITAT with it (there is at a minimum a required "Incidental Take" Permit required - so technically it's not even about handling it!) and that's the law. Period.

Talking about it on a public forum attracts attention to your potential unlawful activities and I believe that if Enforcement felt it necessary, the moderators of this Forum could also be held responsible for your activities after Enforcement is done with you. THAT is why the moderators are pursuing this so aggressively, and I don't blame them (although I could do without words like "stupid" and "dumb" )

There are PLENTY of non-threatened beautiful species to photograph and enjoy, so please, by all means, do exactly that. However, understand that Enforcement takes this all very seriously, and based on my experience, I would recommend that if people continue to snub their nose at the law, the moderators requests to respect the law, the moderators address those people as a more serious threat to the overall peace and enjoyment of this community than they have at this point.

I'm still not sure what to think about the situations where first time posters are asking what things are that they brought home... Perhaps there could just be a blanket thread or even better, static webpage from the nameless, faceless "System Administrator" that they get referred to instead of individuals posting about how that's a bad idea.

I hope you find this illustration using my folly helpful in making good decisions about Forum-worthy posts in the future.

Thanks for your time,
Todd

Read back through the events of the thread. My problem began when I was called a name. It's common episodes such as this one that makes me wonder how much good this forum does to the fish community. It seems like something like this happens once a month or so. I'm glad I got into this hobby, but other things make me with I never did.

I don't have a problem with the law and I'm glad that new information is now out because it can help protect myself and other from serious problems. I'm not going to argue with the law, but I'm open for debate about how people get treated.

I don't have a problem with the law and I'm glad that new information is now out because it can help protect myself and other from serious problems. I'm not going to argue with the law, but I'm open for debate about how people get treated.

I'm sorry, it's not about you.

I'm sorry, it's not about you.

Well that's good to know, but it sure seemed like it for a while.

I'm just another grim mofo, I suppose.

Nah, I don't think of you that way at all. I don't disagree with the essence of what is being said.

My issue is elitism and passing judgment on some, not others. Make it consistent. I'm sensitive because besides fish, herps and archaeology are my other "hobbies". There is a tendency in those fields to want to exclude the non-academic, often with rude and condescending attitude. I'm just a poacher to a herpetologist and a dam grave robber to an archie - even though I would never break a law.
My attitude is a passive photo of a coiled snake is not harassment, cutting it open and shoving a radio transmitter into it's abdomen is harassment.

Personally, I get infinity more enjoyment out of the thought of Jay catching and releasing a rare jewel than I do from the thought of others tossing half a dozen breeders into jars of formalin where they will sit on a shelf for eternity. The thrill he would get, and share with others through photos, is worth all the dead pickled fish on the shelves of the world. Let the next grad student use one of Jay's photos to count fin rays.

Just my warped opinion, does not reflect the official policy of the forum or NANFA.

I totally agree, Mike, on every point, except one... And that was an exact reason for my post. Academicians get in trouble too, as my story relates. They don't go willy nilly across the countryside and bottle all that we see and store it on a shelf (although there's a whole argument within that for some of that activity). We have to apply, before any work starts depending on the situation, and have the patience to build trust with the permitting agency - ie we may not get to do the work we want to do.

In fact, it was actually easier for me personally when I was just some fish guy. I've had to get rid of all my natives from home, because my permit states that I can not keep any wildlife at a residence. I can't sample where I want - Darby Creek for example, where I can lawfully "collect bait" with a fishing license but I violate my permit to be doing what I was ACTUALLY doing, which was sampling fish.

Not exactly the land of milk and honey. It was probably more difficult for me to assimilate into the paradigm for most because I "grew up" doing whatever I felt like. Pair that with my big male ego, and I got right into REAL trouble in a real hurry.

It's not just academia either... Half of my buddy's non-DNR Agency job is organizing permits for their people to sample along the Ohio River, of which, they are pulled over every time they are seen by respective DNR's to make sure they have everything in order (some states are much worse about this than others). If they do not, sampling stops, stuff is confiscated, people are temporarily detained, etc. A real hassle, but then there's the ALTERNATIVE previously where stuff had ZERO protection.

I'll make my point more clearly... I don't want you folks to get into trouble, and I've tried to illustrate this with people's stories you may have thought could do whatever they like. I think what you folks do is fantastic, and I love this place because I get to see passion for our fishes, which I don't find so often among my academic colleagues and agency folks that I work with.

As for people getting their stuff jumped, I see both sides of that issue - but it would be great if all we heard was the moderator's concern for lawfulness and liability. We can get busy at times, and dealing with the same issue over and over turns into tedium and irritation, especially when we've been in the field for 11 days straight and haven't seen our wives, etc., and you feel like you're responsible for checking in on the Forum. On the other hand, that's no excuse to just jump someone's crap with sarcasm, venom and piety, even if they are stating they're willing to break Federal Law in their ignorance of the law. There's a kinder way to do it, and it's NOT when you're running out the door to your next "real world" task. That's only ever gotten me into real trouble

So... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a certain level of professionalism from NANFA's moderators, and that's when it's probably time for a moderator to take a break for awhile. Which is exactly why I resigned from my appointment a year and some back, as I found myself in a similar corner.

Todd

I totally agree, Mike, on every point, except one... And that was an exact reason for my post. Academicians get in trouble too, as my story relates. They don't go willy nilly across the countryside and bottle all that we see and store it on a shelf (although there's a whole argument within that for some of that activity). We have to apply, before any work starts depending on the situation, and have the patience to build trust with the permitting agency - ie we may not get to do the work we want to do.

Todd

Of course I appreciate and enjoy reading about true scientific work, including that obtained from preserved specemins. Nor did I intend to imply unethical or illegal scientific collection.
Only that science and scientists shouldn't lose track of the fact that their work only enriches themselves and other academics if they maintain the isolationist attitude sometimes seen. There is no benifit to mankind if the regular people are prevented from experiencing and enjoying the recources on their own efforts.

I confess to hijacking the thread and diverting from the orginal course of the first few posts [no loss IMO]. What I'm talking about is not necessarily the same thing that started the thread, but it is related.

PM sent to Josh. I'm personally done with THIS and how many times it comes up. Todd really hit the nail on the head as we lead very similar lives and have similar temperments. Thankfully I haven't had the same personal experience, but that experience is the reason why I am taking a few major steps back from the organization. But one thing Todd overlooked is that I also resigned my moderator status over a week ago, so no level of professionalism on behalf of the forum moderators was tarnished in the making of this public service announcement.

PM received and responded.

Due to all of this I do have a few public things to say.

1. Though it may have not seemed like it from my wording, I was NOT and will NOT intentionally target any state or federal protected species. I did not mean for it to seems like I was. I collect in that area because I have family there and easy access, I realize the impact that coal/timer has had on that area and I do not want to hurt a population in SE KY or any other part of any state and will not do anything that may result in a negative impact on a protected species.

2. Though I was, again, the person who brought out another law. I am glad that his law is out in the open as it was something I was not aware of. Maybe we should post a special pinned thread concerning Federal laws so people can readily get this info when they come here. Again, I was not aware of that regulation and I'm glad others can be now.

3. I, and all others collecting, have the responsibily of knowing their laws and regs. I happen to live in a state with a wide variety of fish, along with a longer list of T&E fish. This means I have more responsibilty with the area's I collect, because there are not many area's that don't/didn't harbor a protected fish. Know your laws, know your fish....stay out of trouble.

Last, I want to put a public apology out to all Mods/Members/Guests that may have read or responded to this. This was something that got out of hand and should have been handled differently, and for that I am sorry.