Carp

Let me think here about How much I'm willing to argue with you Sandtiger......Ummmmm..... not at all...... as I have stated exactly what I think and your not about to change that. Carp are trash animals and they need to be exterminated in my opinion exterminated with extreme prejudice. I have no love or hate for these fish. What they are to me is a pest and as a pest species they need to be eradicated.

I never said that they shouldn't be eradicated, re-read my posts.

Admire the Rat with fins all you want.... I'm not going to and nor am I going to just accept their presence as something nothing can be done about. Something can be done about them and they can be controlled to a non-offensive level just as any other pest species can be controlled.

You can admire something you dislike, you can admire your enemys, you can admire roaches or carp or rats but still work towards their removal. Almost every exterminator I have met has expressed admiration towards the animals they kill on a daily basis. Roaches, rats, carp...they are adaptable and survive in the most adverse conditions. They do need to be controlled but like you said, in a non-offensive level. That's my argument, heck...I don't even care if you don't admire them just don't leave them on the banks to die, or cut off their fins and throw them back or stick firecrackers inside them. That's the biggest point I'm trying to make, kill them yes but don't torture them simply because they are what they are and do what nature made them to do.

Being a Naturalist....I do know quite a bit about ecology, extinctions, evolution etc....I do know about the way things work in natural systems and one thing I do know is ever since we eliminated the Common carp from a particular pool of water on a restoration site, the diversity of Native species in the pool has increased ten-fold in three years. Hmmm...gee what could that mean?????????? It certianly does not mean that Carp where helping things for our Native fish and aquatic flora.

I never said they shouldn't be eradicated. In fact, I remember saying that they are a problem and should be delt with. I even remember saying that though I admire them I don't want them here.

These fish offer nothing to our local fauna, flora or ecology and sorry but I do not have your admiration for these pests and I never will. They are roaches and they need to be stepped on and crushed every opportunity that arises.

I admire roaches as well, I can't help but admire something that's been on this planet longer than mammals. I can asure you though, if they come into my house I will kill them.

Who is We?

Human beings, Homo sapians, the 3rd chimpanzee...whatever you want to call us, you know full well what I ment.

It was not me involved so do not use the word we...And as far as I'm concerned these fish are trash and belong in a dump. They have no place in North American ecology except for being a chemical fertilizer substitute or seagull food. I never put them anywhere except to their timely death and removal from the ecosystem. I did not put these fish anywhere. Being Native American in my ancestory also states I did not have much to do with introducing these fish ancestorially so please never say WE as I'm not a part of this WE in any form...Maybe YOU but not ME...

Again, you know what I ment. If you're going to take it personally I guess that's your own problem to deal with.

And you may speak for yourself again here but not for me..If you really want to bet some good money though I will be happy to take yours as It is my job to secure and restore habitat for wildlife. I do more in a week for North American ecology and ecosystems than I ever contribute to the degrading of it in the same span of time. The carp I have removed in my lifetime has actually shown positive results to Native fish and aquatic macrophytes in specific restorations and this data is empirical not anecdotal. Carp have well documented negative impacts on the ecology of an area.

I'm glad that's your job...we need more people that work towards those goals. We all have a negative impact on the environment, like it or not. Whether you're kicking over rocks while seining, running over amphibians in the road, useing electricity and fuel in your daily life, throwing out a babys diaper...you get the picture, it all adds up.
http://www.earthday....tprint/info.asp

here is no disputing the fact that if they are removed Native aquatic fauna and flora begin to thrive and return, this applies even to highly degraded localities. Don't tell me that removing them does not do anything for Local habitats as it very much does and every little bit helps IMHO be it one fish or a thousand.

I never said it didn't help, please if I did quote it for me. What I did say was that they are an established species over much of the country and are here to stay. If you can remove them from a specific body of water than by all means do it. You are lucky enough that it's your job. If an individual like myself tried to go and fish all the carp out of Seneca lake however, it would be in vain.

Why is it that evolutionists seem to view people as having a negative impact on the environment? If what you believe about evolution is true, then we are part of the environment. Everything that we do is natural. We are just a more well adapted species, and our success at the expense of others is only natural. If you believe in evolution, that is.

Yes we are part of the enviornment and yes our actions determine the future of and eventual outcome of species that come in contact with us. It is true that by man introducing species that this can be seen as part of a natural order and that our actions and the extinctions and changes we have as a species caused is indeed part of a natural order. It is however not a given law that this needs to be so. Man can still influence and maintain what is a natural system and he/she can make a choice about what is deserving of restoration or protection.

I as an "evolutionist" strongly believe that we as a species can choose a path in the future of our planet. We can choose wholesale extinction or we can choose to take a less hands on approach. We have the ability as a species to fix our past wrongs and we can choose the future of given enviornments. Me I'm in the "lets try to get back somewhat near where everything started and then go from there approach" when it comes to North American ecosystems. They will never be the same but we sure as hell can try to get them atleast somewhat aligned and then let them be to evolve as they should without our input.

Note: THE GRASS CARP WAS ALREADY DEAD BEFORE WE ADMINISTERED THE LEATHERMAN TOOL That was only for effect!

No one here is likely to torture any animal.

Most of the points I would have made here have been made by others, thank you.  I will say that I don't think that carp are what evolution strives for, because evolution is not real, but an atheistic lie.

Evolution is very real, you can actually watch it happen but that's a debate for another thread I'm afraid.

That does not mean that we should accept the outcome of their bad stewardship.  If carp are a bad thing in our waterways, good stewardship says that we should eradicate them.  Rats were introduced and are well adapted, should we accept them?  How about the sea lamprey, is that a good thing?  Killer bees.  Fire ants.  Gypsy moths.  The list goes on.  We have programs to control these introduced pests, not respect them, even if we may never eradicate them.  And that's just getting started.

Like I said before, you can respect and admire something but still work towards it's removal. Love thy enemy.

I do have one question, though.  Why is it that evolutionists seem to view people as having a negative impact on the environment?  If what you believe about evolution is true, then we are part of the environment.  Everything that we do is natural.  We are just a more well adapted species, and our success at the expense of others is only natural.  If you believe in evolution, that is.

Actually, that is what I believe, I just don't like that it has to be that way. Everything we do is natural. Carp in our waterways is natural, our buildings are as natural as termite mounds. I except extinctions as a natural part of this planet but I don't like the idea that WE are the cause. Lets face it, the earth is billions of years old. Like I said before, over the course of time that life has been here 5 extinctions have taken place, we are in a 6th. If dinosaurs could not survive after 150 million years of rule on this planet then there is no hope for the smallest darters in the smallest creeks in some remote forest. That is exactly why I admire all the peasts and weeds on this planet, their ability to survive under pressure and for so long. Humans have been here for a mear 1 million years, do you really think our being here will have an impact in the long run...when I say long run I mean LONG RUN, millions of years from now when we are long gone. For all we know, what WE (as in all of us humans) do on this planet is exactly what we are ment to do. When it comes down to conservation, we are the ones that will ultimatly suffer for what we have done, not this planet, a planet that's pretty used to the cycle of life and death.

If you want to discuss carp, take it to another thread... If you want to talk evolution, take it to another forum.

For the record: I kill carp. As many invasives as I can. I respect the carp for all your above mentioned reasons but I'm not about to let the cancer spread if I can help it. I make every attempt to kill carp as quickly and painlessly as possible. I'm sure all of us do when we dispatch invasives. We're not the types to just let them die on shore.

Another thing that grinds my gears...why is it so popular to hate carp and yet other non-natives get away scot free? Largemouth bass are established over much of the country where they don't belong. Rainbow trout have been stocked in the east, brooks in the west where they both caused problems. Brown trout aren't even from the United States. Just another classic example of people keeping around the animals they like, if anyone was truely a conservationist at heart they would be blowing brown trout out of the water with shotguns or leaving them on the banks to die...oh, right, that would be illegal...illegal to kill a non-native species. It seems that people only go after carp simly because they don't like them for whatever reason...their taste, looks...whatever but yet hide under the excuse of doing it for the environment.

I think you have us all wrong here. If I had a magic wand....Let’s just say all the native fish that have been spread improperly would be gone along with all of the invasives. I'm an equal opportunity hater