Pet stores should require passing a test:)

I did every thing wrong at first, yes everything. Thanks to the internet and mainly NANFA I am trying to correct the situation. My ammonia is off the scale at 8+. My pH is 6.4. I have a 55 gal with 2 mechanical filters that are each rated for 50gal aquariums. On the 19th I did a 17 gal water change and added aquarium salt for the first time as recommended by the product. Ammonia read 8+. On the 21st I replaced 27 gal and added the appropriate amount of salt and the pH remained the same, the ammonia is still off the chart at 8+, nitrite is .2, and nitrate is 40ppm.

History of errors.
1 No initial cycling
2 Over crowding (80" of fish, two turtles, 1 lesser siren, crawdads, 1 mussel and two diving beetles)
3 Over feeding
4 Removed all beneficial bacteria during filter cleanings
5 Only replenished water as necessary
6 Had plenty of floating plants from my pond at various degrees of decay

Somehow I have lost only a few to disease that I am now sure is stress related. It is a wonder any are alive with the constant recycling.

Having said that: Do I continue with water changes to control ammonia or go to chemicals. I will remove and exterminate some of the fish to reduce the population.

Here's a question: Have you tested your water supply?
Also,
The decay and overstocking could be responsible for both lower pH and high ammonia. I would control bioload first.
What units are you testing ammonia in?

Edited by AndrewAcropora, 23 September 2009 - 01:28 PM.

Here's a question: Have you tested your water supply?
Also,
The decay and overstocking could be responsible for both lower pH and high ammonia. I would control bioload first.
What units are you testing ammonia in?

Yes, get rid of 2/3 of the fish and both turtles. You have a big overload there.

Having said that: Do I continue with water changes to control ammonia or go to chemicals. I will remove and exterminate some of the fish to reduce the population.

Water changes, definitely. The only exception would be zeolite. You could add some of that to one of your filters. You find it in stores on the shelf next to carbon. Get a filter bag or use a foot off of pantyhose to hold it, it's like gravel. Other chemicals interfere with cycling and will prolong it. You have to balance cycling the tank with saving the fish, and water changes is the way to do that.

Also I wouldn't use anything that's going to raise your ph until you get the ammonia issue resolved. Ammonia is more toxic at a higher ph.

What species of turtles are you keeping?

I would try a product called cycle most stores have it this will speed cycling. Also when you do water changes do them 50% or more and a declorinator that also removes amonia (such as prime by seachem) every other water change.And last but not least cut down on stock. Good luck hope you fishy freinds come out on top!



SKOL VIKINGS!!!!

I almost forgot to raise ph use sand stone and tuffa plus crushed seashells.


SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, get rid of 2/3 of the fish and both turtles. You have a big overload there.

I replaced 15 gallons last night and removed 2 bass, one grass pickerel, 2 bullheads and one crawdad. One of the bass and the pickerel were 7" each. I am down to 54" of fish. After 3 hours my pH was 7.2 and I did test the county water at 7.6, the ammonia was at 6 on a scale from 1 to 8 (ppm I think). Nitrites were 0. I did not know until reading the posts a few minutes ago that the pH of 6.4 was considered low or that a high pH makes the ammonia more toxic. I did read that sudden changes in the pH was harmful? My turtles are a common snapper and a redeared slider, are turtles bad for the ammonia? I read that they discharge uric acid, is that worse than ammonia? I have been reading a lot, water chemistry in an aquarium is very involved and often over my head.
My dechlorinator requires one drop per gal and supposedly instantly makes the water safe. Since the water temp is the same as my tank 74 I have been putting it in almost immediatly after treatment (except for the salted water that I put in last so the larger volume in the tank would help keep me from overdosing them with something else). I have also cut back on feeding. But I do have a 2" dia dogwood branch for decoration and to serve as a perch for the slider. It had been in my 20 gal aquarium for 4 months. Is it contributing to the ammonia?

My fish and I thank you for the help.

Bo

Turtles produce a lost of waste for their given size. Both of those species of turtle will also outgrow the 55 gallon tank. The RES is going to end up somewhere between 8 and 13 inches depending on sex. Females get larger than males and a female would barely be able to turn around in a 55 gallon. The common snapper will grow large enough that you're going to need a stock tank/pond to humanely house it.

Turtles produce a lost of waste for their given size. Both of those species of turtle will also outgrow the 55 gallon tank. The RES is going to end up somewhere between 8 and 13 inches depending on sex. Females get larger than males and a female would barely be able to turn around in a 55 gallon. The common snapper will grow large enough that you're going to need a stock tank/pond to humanely house it.

Would it be considered wrong to put them back in the ponds they came from? Only had the slider about a week but the snapper has been with me for about 6 months. As far as out growing my tank the remaining bullheads, bass and grass pickerel will too. So basically most everything in my tank has a grim future.

Bo

I am looking forward to checking the pH and ammonia this afternoon. My plan is to do a 50% water change as suggested one more time without trying to add any chemicals. I do plan on going by the pet store to check on the availability of the items in these posts. I need to learn more about water chemistry. I may be confusing the effect of pH on tropical fish with native fishes. What will happen to my fish after this sudden increase in pH? More open to disease due to stress and how long before I know they are safe? I mean generally as in 3 days or 3 weeks or months?


I have been trying to observe any changes in the fishes behavior since adding aquarium salt and making water changes. The remaining fish in the 55 gallon aquarium are (2) 3" bass, (2) bowfin 4 and 6 inches, one grass pickerel 7 inch, one mirrored carp 6 inches, one (recently NANFA identified) creek chubsucker 4 inches, one warmouth, two redeared sunfish, one longeared sunfish, one lesser siren, crawdads, two diving beetles. The turtles will leave tonite.

The diving beetles started breeding but since they breath air they are uneffected by the ammonia and pH. The two bowfin though have each become aggresive with each other so I assume they must be territorial in the wild. This only started after the water changes and addition of salt. If this is natural in the wild could I assume they are positivly effected by the change? Or could their fighting be due to the reduced available food instead of water quality issues? I had not observed this siren eating until yesterday.

One of the bowfin will have to leave to prevent them from damaging each other and stressing the other fish. The carp will soon be leaving because I cant afford to feed him much longer.

My 20 gal has a low pH of 6.4 but almost no sign of ammonia 0.25 and the nitrite was 0.2 ppm. It keeps my mud darter, a few flier sunfish, pirate perch, a blackspotted topminnow, and 2 small siren. But that is another story.

Thanks

Bo

your tank is still overloaded. Why set yourself up for failure? It sounds like your other tank is heading down the same road. Do research before you subject living creatures to improper and potentially fatal conditions.

I was reading through this post and something occurred to me. Are you using a gravel vacuum or at least getting your siphon hose close to the substrate during water changes? If not, the substrate is probably holding loads of fish/turtle waste and decaying food that are pumping out ammonia.

6.4 is perfectly fine for all the fish you mentioned. As far as I know, only a few of the African cichlids would really have a problem with such slight acid. However, try to avoid large sudden changes in pH for any fish. Frequent water changes to replenish carbonates or the addition of a slow-leaching buffer like oyster shell, crushed coral, seashells or limestone will help maintain a more stable environment.

Please do not return unwanted animals to the wild. In general it's better to just euthanize them if you can't find them a suitable home.

I'll take the siren if you don't want him

The official NANFA policy on rerelease is don't do it.
From the NANFA main page, bolding added by me:

NANFA Member Code of Ethics
NANFA Members who collect native fishes from the wild and maintain them in private aquaria are encouraged to comply with the following Code of Ethics:

* It is the responsibility of NANFA members to acquaint themselves with, and abide by, the collecting, fishing and fish transfer regulations of each Country, State or Province in which they collect, transfer, or ship fish.

* Collecting must be done in an environmentally sound and responsible manner, which includes, but is not limited to: a) not removing numbers of fishes beyond that which one requires or is capable of sustaining; b) taking all reasonable actions to prevent negative impacts on the habitat in which one collects; c) respecting private property rights; and d) complying with any law-enforcement, natural-resource, or other conservation officer or agent encountered in the field.

* NANFA members who enjoy collecting and maintaining fishes do so of their own accord. Except for specific programs funded and/or sponsored by the Association, NANFA does not sanction any specific collection and/or captive maintenance of native fishes.

* Not all native fishes are suitable for aquaria, and some species may test the skills of even the most experienced aquarist. Therefore, members are encouraged to research the biology and captive requirements of each species before an attempt is made to remove them from the wild.

* Fishes or other aquatic organisms must not be relocated or introduced into any outdoor bodies of water, even to places where they were originally collected (except catch and immediate release), including specimens raised in private aquaria, without permission from the appropriate governing agency. Members must realize that there are complicated and often unknown ecological processes at work in aquatic systems which may make fish introductions detrimental to the system. Potential problems from such introductions include displacement of native species, spread of disease, and the loss of genetic diversity via hybridization.

* All reasonable attempts should be made to maintain fishes with the utmost regard for their safety and health, which includes, but is not limited to: maintaining sufficient water quality; providing water chemistry, temperature, oxygen levels and foods appropriate for each particular species; species compatibility; and the safe and humane transport of fishes from the wild to the aquarium. Sick or infirm specimens should be euthanized in a humane manner and disposed of properly.

The effect of stress on fish is the same as on humans. Every negative factor past a certain point is going to depress the immune system and make the fish more vulnerable to disease. I would avoid making any changes that don't need to be made until you've got the primary issues under control. Sort out the ammonia and aggression issues first. Once you've got that tackled then you can worry about the little things like ph.

Thanks Clayton, thats the way I read it too. I was just hoping the turtles might have fallen in a different category or set of rules. I may end up trying to keep them if I can get the tank stabalized.

Bo

I was reading through this post and something occurred to me. Are you using a gravel vacuum or at least getting your siphon hose close to the substrate during water changes? If not, the substrate is probably holding loads of fish/turtle waste and decaying food that are pumping out ammonia.

Yes I am using a siphon and am getting very little dirty water as Ive made so many changes lately.

Bo

6.4 is perfectly fine for all the fish you mentioned. As far as I know, only a few of the African cichlids would really have a problem with such slight acid. However, try to avoid large sudden changes in pH for any fish. Frequent water changes to replenish carbonates or the addition of a slow-leaching buffer like oyster shell, crushed coral, seashells or limestone will help maintain a more stable environment.

Please do not return unwanted animals to the wild. In general it's better to just euthanize them if you can't find them a suitable home.

I'll take the siren if you don't want him

I am assuming that a properly cycled tanks pH will be close to my sources pH not sure though. I plan on keeping my siren but I would be glad to catch you one if you like. I hunt them after dark and they range from 3 to 9" so far. Very neat to watch. I have been seeing a few but I just enjoy watching them anymore.

Bo

I agree, pH really isn't something you need to worry about within the ranges read by hobby test kits

Do you have any available source of nitrifying bacteria you could add to this filter? It sounded like you had another tank with a filter. Is it cycled already or does it have ammonia too? If cycled it would help a lot to just take the filter pads out and rub them together, then put them back. 6ppm ammonia is really crazy high. I've seen fish survive 8 briefly (didn't read the ingredient label on some "pond plant fertilizer" tabs), but plenty have died at 1. Sometimes stores will give you a bit of filter media if you ask.

The driftwood is not contributing to your problem. Having been in a tank for that long it likely has a colony of bacteria established on it that is helping to lower ammonia, but it can't keep up with the load yet.

Not to hijack your thread, but how do you catch sirens? Supposedly they shouldn't be terribly uncommon where I am, but I've never seen one.