Has anyone ever seen a silt fence that hasn't failed? I mean seriously, our best defense against loose surface soil is still landscape fabric stappled to 1 x 2 stakes. The presence of a listed snail hasn't been a problem either? Extinction is forever...
Save the Spring Pygmy Sunfish
Started by
Guest_Elassoman_*
, Dec 03 2009 11:55 AM
61 replies to this topic
#42
Guest_Elassoman_*
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Posted 14 June 2010 - 12:30 PM
Has anyone ever seen a silt fence that hasn't failed? I mean seriously, our best defense against loose surface soil is still landscape fabric stappled to 1 x 2 stakes. The presence of a listed snail hasn't been a problem either? Extinction is forever...
Well put.
#43
Guest_Lotsapetsgarfhts_*
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Posted 01 July 2010 - 07:28 AM
Now I know that the USF&WS doesn't like to "reintroduce" captive bred fish into the wild it may be time to get these fish into peoples hands that can breed and maintain them. I would suggest that a group should form so that every so often fish could be exchanged so it would be like line breeding guppies. The fact is once they are gone they are gone, and once they are protected you can't get them. I think we've seen how protection works some times, they protect the fish into extinction. I will add that while I am very interested in ELassomas and have kept and bred evergladei and okefenokee I have no real interest in this project other than the fact I would like to see the fish saved. The fact is even if it is with all the habitat destruction that has already occured it will probably never come off the list even if the destruction stops because it had a very limited range to begin with.
#44
Guest_fundulus_*
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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:47 AM
Really? What fish species has been protected into extinction? Captive breeding in a case like this would likely change the species, like has happened to Devil's Hole Pupfish populations kept in refugia. The Spring Pygmy lives in an unusual environment of shallow spring pools linked by water flowing through limestone karst, and of course it's that environment that is being busily destroyed as we twiddle.
#45
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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:59 AM
I agree with you Bruce that captive stocking would change the species, but if care was given to replicate the environment as well as possible in regards to pH, Hardness, mineral content and vegetation, I think it would be worth the effort. Even in regards to the Devil's Hole pupfish, and Lake Eustis pupfish for that matter, my understanding is that the changes are simply phenotypic and are not changes made to the genotype as a whole. If this is indeed the case, the fish would revert back to their original form after some time in their proper habitat if reintroduced. Regardless of what shape the fish morphs into in captivity, wouldn't it be better to have populations of the fish in captivity versus having no fish at all? I think CFI worked with these guys in the past and may be currently so maybe they can up their efforts. Several zoos, including Riverbanks in Columbia, work with pygmies as part of a species maintenance program primarily targeting boehlkei and okatie so maybe they could step up and creat additional ark populations.
#46
Guest_Lotsapetsgarfhts_*
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Posted 01 July 2010 - 02:17 PM
Well some of the pupfish could have possibly been saved. Yes I know about the Devils Hole pupfish. I've been to the hole and the refugia. Of course we don't know what would happen if you took stock from the refugia and put them back in the hole. I'd bet that they would revert to their original size. Here in Ohio Fundulus diaphanis menona is slowly dying out but they are protected. Habitats continue to be altered and Fundulus notatus seems to be replacing them. At this point I'm not really that interested in them anyway, but I'd still hate for them to be lost. My point was if there were a group of people maintaining them and they exchanged females every couple of generations you shouldn't se much in the way of changes as long as you avoided selective breeding. I guess you are right though if there is no suitible habitat to reintroduce them into why bother.
#47
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Posted 04 July 2010 - 04:59 PM
I agree! Its better to have captive bred populations in zoos than to completely lose the species and genome type forever. Of course a best case scenario is for the USFWS to protect them and their habitat.
I agree with you Bruce that captive stocking would change the species, but if care was given to replicate the environment as well as possible in regards to pH, Hardness, mineral content and vegetation, I think it would be worth the effort. Even in regards to the Devil's Hole pupfish, and Lake Eustis pupfish for that matter, my understanding is that the changes are simply phenotypic and are not changes made to the genotype as a whole. If this is indeed the case, the fish would revert back to their original form after some time in their proper habitat if reintroduced. Regardless of what shape the fish morphs into in captivity, wouldn't it be better to have populations of the fish in captivity versus having no fish at all? I think CFI worked with these guys in the past and may be currently so maybe they can up their efforts. Several zoos, including Riverbanks in Columbia, work with pygmies as part of a species maintenance program primarily targeting boehlkei and okatie so maybe they could step up and creat additional ark populations.
#48
Guest_Mysteryman_*
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Posted 05 July 2010 - 08:16 AM
Protecting the habitat is wonderful... as long as you are protecting it from things you expect.
Listing this fish will stop the bulldozers...maybe... but it won't stop deliberate acts of sabotage or weird things like chemical truck wreck spills or direct gigabolt lightning strikes or F5 tornadoes. I am all for having a Plan-B.
Listing this fish will stop the bulldozers...maybe... but it won't stop deliberate acts of sabotage or weird things like chemical truck wreck spills or direct gigabolt lightning strikes or F5 tornadoes. I am all for having a Plan-B.
#49
Guest_Lotsapetsgarfhts_*
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Posted 05 July 2010 - 04:25 PM
One of the sad facts is we really can't rely on the Zoos and Aquariums to try and keep everything. They all have other projects going and the bottom line with them is display animals. Many of them are underfunded, under staffed and only have a limited amount of reserve space to work with. These are the types of projects that need to be addressed by groups like NANFA. The unfortunate part is most DNRs don't trust most hobbists, and most hobbists don't trust them. To be totally honest I don't and I obey our laws to the letter, but I have seen the results of a sting. Some of it was legitimate, but some of it was really kind of shaky and was thrown out. I actually had an undercover agent try to sell me something that I was not allowed to own, buy ,or sell.
#50
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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:07 AM
Attached is the Fish and Wildlife's response to NANFA's letter requesting emergency listing of the spring pygmy sunfish.
Attached Files
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FWS response.pdf 313.36KB
86 downloads
Edited by fritz, 27 July 2010 - 08:07 AM.
#52
Guest_Elassoman_*
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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:40 PM
I apologize for letting this thread sit for so long. I appreciate everyone's thoughts. As reported here and in similar threads, USFWS is accepting comments from the public on their 90-day finding until the end of the month. I would like to encourage NANFA to submit a scientifically supported comment as an organization. If the BOD would like assistance finding references, I'm happy to be of service.
#53
Guest_Elassoman_*
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Posted 14 July 2011 - 01:14 PM
My cut and paste update of the species' status:
The future is not bright for the Spring Pygmy Sunfish. Audi (VW group) is now in line to develop the Sewell tract, which is across the street from Beaverdam Swamp. In addition, three new residential communities are being constructed or are planned for construction within the watershed. This is the last stronghold for this enigmatic fish, which has already been extirpated from two of the three spring systems it once inhabited.
http://www.timesdail...-north-Alabama-
http://blog.al.com/b...aster_plan.html
http://www.gisplanni...s/tva/Sewell2(1).pdf
This is one of the most geographically restricted fish species that remains unprotected by the Fish and Wildlife Service. The only surviving population has been in decline for four years running. Without protection by USFWS, the groundwater that has fed its habitat for over 5,000 years will soon be rerouted to cool a factory and fill residential toilets. I hope that the decision makers understand that the natural resources of this area are an economic asset, and that federal protection is the best way to ensure that such assets are preserved for future generations. Unless this is understood by all parties involved, the survival of this groundwater dependent fish and ecosystem are in real danger.
I wish I had more time to spend here, but please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any comments, questions, or ideas.
The future is not bright for the Spring Pygmy Sunfish. Audi (VW group) is now in line to develop the Sewell tract, which is across the street from Beaverdam Swamp. In addition, three new residential communities are being constructed or are planned for construction within the watershed. This is the last stronghold for this enigmatic fish, which has already been extirpated from two of the three spring systems it once inhabited.
http://www.timesdail...-north-Alabama-
http://blog.al.com/b...aster_plan.html
http://www.gisplanni...s/tva/Sewell2(1).pdf
This is one of the most geographically restricted fish species that remains unprotected by the Fish and Wildlife Service. The only surviving population has been in decline for four years running. Without protection by USFWS, the groundwater that has fed its habitat for over 5,000 years will soon be rerouted to cool a factory and fill residential toilets. I hope that the decision makers understand that the natural resources of this area are an economic asset, and that federal protection is the best way to ensure that such assets are preserved for future generations. Unless this is understood by all parties involved, the survival of this groundwater dependent fish and ecosystem are in real danger.
I wish I had more time to spend here, but please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any comments, questions, or ideas.
#56
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Posted 14 July 2011 - 02:05 PM
Does a captive breeding population of this species exist?
Yep. CFI is handling the captive propagation protocol. Also, the Alabama Aquatic Biodiversity Center has been involved in talks, but so far this is not one of their projects. This is a valuable conservation tool, however I've made it clear to FWS that relying upon translocation from the native habitat is not congruent with the intent of the Endangered Species Act.
#57
Guest_fundulus_*
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Posted 14 July 2011 - 04:02 PM
They must think you're quite mad.Yep. CFI is handling the captive propagation protocol. Also, the Alabama Aquatic Biodiversity Center has been involved in talks, but so far this is not one of their projects. This is a valuable conservation tool, however I've made it clear to FWS that relying upon translocation from the native habitat is not congruent with the intent of the Endangered Species Act.
#59
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:45 PM
I am asking because I would be willing to maintain a tank of spring pygmy sunfish. It's awful that they are in danger of becoming extinct.Is there a civilian ark conservation project, like C.A.R.E.S. exists for cichlids?
#60
Guest_Elassoman_*
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Posted 15 July 2011 - 05:34 PM
I am asking because I would be willing to maintain a tank of spring pygmy sunfish. It's awful that they are in danger of becoming extinct.
I appreciate the willingness to help, and I'm sure there are many NANFAns who would also volunteer. Presently we are not pursuing this option as part of the conservation strategy. If any fish are removed from the wild (last removal was 2008 if memory serves), they are taken to CFI, where they have the facilities to maintain large populations. One of the lessons we've learned from this fish is that when genetic variation is reduced you observe more malformations (lordosis) and a lower proportion of reproducing adults. If these fish were maintained in home aquaria it would be very difficult to track genetic changes in the population over time, and if most of that variation was lost they could probably never be used for reintroduction (which is why the ark programs exist in the first place). Some of the pupfish and rare killifish have had similar issues, and there are now captive lines that are basically clonal. If they were to be released back into the wild they could actually do harm to the population, by reducing overall genetic variation. The popular example is hatchery raised trout, that can effectively "breed out" native genotypes. Best option for now is to maintain the genetic variation in the wild, which means protecting habitat and groundwater supply. More to come.
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