I want to get a better understanding of paleodrainage patterns and changes in eastern North America, especially the areas south of the Great Lakes. Is there a good overview somewhere that I can start with?
Paleodrainages
Started by
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, Jan 28 2010 10:54 AM
16 replies to this topic
#3
Guest_farmertodd_*
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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:30 PM
That will be a good starting point and is a lot easier to get than Holcutt chapters from AFS. I have a couple pdfs I'll send you as well about the Teays system that are more recent, and might help you think about some of the Ohio River Nothonotus and variatum.
I've been organizing my pdfs I've collected with the anticipation of at least getting the citations in the darterbase. I'm hoping to get to that before you do
Todd
I've been organizing my pdfs I've collected with the anticipation of at least getting the citations in the darterbase. I'm hoping to get to that before you do
Todd
#5
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:15 PM
Todd, since you're such an incredibly clever and graphically creative guy, how about you make us a "1-minute time-lapse drainage history map" of North America (zoomable of course). Now wouldn't that be an awesome feature to showcase on nanfa.org? (Then you can do the same for the rest of the world).
#7
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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:06 PM
BTW, don't believe too much of all the paleodrainage stuff you read, most of it is very old and a bit dubious at best. If you look carefully you will find most of the fish biogeography folks in North America cite other fish people for their geological evidence rather than citing the original geology papers, if they even exist. Also, at times people have proposed paleorivers that are completely fictional with no geological evidence for them at all (the examples I am thinking of are from southern Oklahoma). Now, keep in mind that I am not suggesting that all paleodrainage stuff is garbage, obviously many rivers have changed with glaciation, I'm just saying take everything you read with a grain of salt and consider the source. If you really want to be original take some geomorphology classes and get into the geomorph/geology literature and talk to the authors of the geological stuff that you find. Only then will you have a better handle on what is reasonable vs. fairy tails.
And, if you want to read a good biogeography paper, then start with mine. Wrong continent, but you might find it interesting nonetheless.
http://www3.intersci...ETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Cheers
Peter
And, if you want to read a good biogeography paper, then start with mine.
Wrong continent, but you might find it interesting nonetheless.http://www3.intersci...ETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Cheers
Peter
#8
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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:15 PM
Thanks, Peter! I've gotten a hint of that from my reading so far- there seems to be so much disagreement over the course of the Old Upper Tennessee/Appalachian River and even whether the Teays River existed as a discrete system at any point that it is very difficult to try to tie in current distributions to ancient drainage patterns. That's a good suggestion on taking a Geomorphology class. Between that and GIS the Geosciences dept. will be seeing a lot of me!
Unfortunately I cannot see your paper as I do not have access to Wiley materials.
Unfortunately I cannot see your paper as I do not have access to Wiley materials.
#9
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Posted 28 January 2010 - 11:23 PM
Well, at least it was geologists musing over the Teays in the papers I gave you this afternoon But Peter's point is well made. A lot of times it's fish guy citing fish guy, and it was the latter's opinion anyway. When working on the greenside complex, Ms. Haponski ran into more than just bristly ichthyologists. Fortunately, she had a great glacial geologist on her committee, and I took her lead, and my project has only blossomed because of it. In fact, I think every ecologist should be required to take a surficial processes class... What's the context if you don't understand the underlying basis?
Todd
But Peter's point is well made. A lot of times it's fish guy citing fish guy, and it was the latter's opinion anyway. When working on the greenside complex, Ms. Haponski ran into more than just bristly ichthyologists. Fortunately, she had a great glacial geologist on her committee, and I took her lead, and my project has only blossomed because of it. In fact, I think every ecologist should be required to take a surficial processes class... What's the context if you don't understand the underlying basis? Todd
#11
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Posted 30 January 2010 - 01:15 AM
Back in the day, I used to love those superficial courses ... those are what kept my GPA up in the lofty heights of 2.2 to 2.3 ... oh wait ... you said surficial ..... never mind.In fact, I think every ecologist should be required to take a surficial processes class... What's the context if you don't understand the underlying basis?
#12
Guest_bpkeck_*
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Posted 31 January 2010 - 02:46 PM
Most of the fish lit. geomorphology can be traced to Regional Geomorphology of the United States by Thornbury (1965). That's particularly true for the remnant highland areas. The little geologic lit I've been able to come across for the Cumberland/TN/upper Mobile are restricted to the recent past (<5 million years ago). If there was an Appalachian River that consisted of the upper TN River, upstream of Walden Gorge, flowing through the Coosa R. it was gone by the late Mesozoic early Cenozoic, which would mean that phylogenies of most extant fishes in the region would have little evidence of the split of this old river. The upper TN R. probably flowed through what is the modern Black Warrior system ~10 mya and the loss of this connection, or subsequent connections downstream (through Tombigbee/Pearl/Mississippi outlets), are probably the vicariant events that correspond to divergence of faunas between the two drainages. That's all based on the geology of Walden Gorge and the distribution of deposits of gravels originating from the Appalachians in Alabama, Mississippi, and the Gulf of Mexico.
See:
Mills HH, Kay JM (2001) Drainage history of the Tennessee River: Review and new metamorphic quartz locations. Southeastern Geology, 40, 75–97.
and a bit of self promotion
Near & Keck (2005) Dispersal, vicariance, and timing of diversification in Nothonotus darters. Molecular Ecology, 14, 3485–3496.
or an old one
White CH (1904) The Appalachian River versus a Tertiary Trans-Appalachian River in Eastern Tennessee. The Journal of Geology, 12:1 34-39.
H Mills (at TN Tech I think) has quite a few geology papers, and you've probably read some on the New River if Todd sent stuff on the Teays.
Peter's comments are very true. A lot of the hypothesized paleodrainages in the fish lit are based on gestalt phylogenies amd/or don't consider pseudocongruence.
See:
Mills HH, Kay JM (2001) Drainage history of the Tennessee River: Review and new metamorphic quartz locations. Southeastern Geology, 40, 75–97.
and a bit of self promotion
Near & Keck (2005) Dispersal, vicariance, and timing of diversification in Nothonotus darters. Molecular Ecology, 14, 3485–3496.
or an old one
White CH (1904) The Appalachian River versus a Tertiary Trans-Appalachian River in Eastern Tennessee. The Journal of Geology, 12:1 34-39.
H Mills (at TN Tech I think) has quite a few geology papers, and you've probably read some on the New River if Todd sent stuff on the Teays.
Peter's comments are very true. A lot of the hypothesized paleodrainages in the fish lit are based on gestalt phylogenies amd/or don't consider pseudocongruence.
#14
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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:07 AM
Thanks! I shall have to get those papers. I assume Walden's Gorge is where the Tennessee crosses Walden's Ridge/ Raccoon Mountain to enter the Sequatchie Valley, right?
That'd be it. I have the White and Near&Keck that I'll send, but the Mills & Kaye I'll have to scan and send later if you don't have it.
Ben
#16
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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:25 PM
If they do, Nathan, can you grab this one too:
October 2005 44 1 4 Hugh H. Mills David N. Sumner Evan A. Hart Peter Li
Distribution of High-level Alluvial Deposits in the Valley and Ridge
of Polk County, Southeastern Tennessee, and Implications for River
History and Drainage Evolution
If not, I can ILL it from one of the other colleges here in Ohio. I've been meaning to do this.
Todd
October 2005 44 1 4 Hugh H. Mills David N. Sumner Evan A. Hart Peter Li
Distribution of High-level Alluvial Deposits in the Valley and Ridge
of Polk County, Southeastern Tennessee, and Implications for River
History and Drainage Evolution
If not, I can ILL it from one of the other colleges here in Ohio. I've been meaning to do this.
Todd
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