Being lucky enough to have these, I want to be able to breed them. From what I've read, these fish spawn in chub nests in the wild. I've also read that they will spawn over gravel in captivity. I currently have them in a 29G with gravel, a few larger rocks, big bundle of java moss, and various other "grass-like" plants. There is a current created by a spray bar going from one side to the other. My light cycle is pretty short at 8 hrs of light/day and water temperature is ~60F. It will be hard to get the temperature any lower in my basement without opening the doors at night which I don't want to do. The PH of the tap water used is 6.8-7.0.
I'm planning on increasing the light cycle progressively and the temperature will rise naturally with the ambient temperate of the room.
1) Has anyone done this themselves? Or know someone who has done it?
2) Anyone know of any documentation with procedures that were taken to trigger a spawn?
3) I've seen some publications regarding other Phoxinus spp., should I used these as a basis?
Thanks in advance.
Breeding Phoxinus oreas
Started by
Guest_drewish_*
, Jan 16 2007 03:54 PM
25 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_ashtonmj_*
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 04:42 PM
Have you read Rakes et al. 2004. Reproductive Behavior, Captive Breeding, and Restoration Ecology of Endangered Fishes. Environmental Biology of Fishes. pp 31-42.
I would remove the grass like plants and java moss or try both treatments if you can. I may be able to get you some brand spanking new info regarding temps during/triggering spawn in a Phoxinus spp.
How fast (subjectively speaking) is your current?
Better get yourself some surrogate nest fish too.
I would remove the grass like plants and java moss or try both treatments if you can. I may be able to get you some brand spanking new info regarding temps during/triggering spawn in a Phoxinus spp.
How fast (subjectively speaking) is your current?
Better get yourself some surrogate nest fish too.
#3
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 05:57 PM
I do not have access to that publication. Are P. cumberlandensis similar enough to use that as a basis?
I had read somewhere that one of the Phoxinus spp spawned in bundles of java moss which is one reason I have it in there. That would be great it you can give me that information as I can't find anything on it.
The water is being turned over about 4x/hour. The spray bar is tilted so about a third of it is out of the water and moves the water pretty well. I'm using a classic Eheim 2213. Since the P. oreas are "pool" fish I didn't feel it necessary to add anymore current.
Are chubs truly necessary? Other species of fish that spawn in other's nests will spawn over gravel in aquaria. Is it a trigger similar to P. welaka reacting to L. megalotis that causes them to spawn in the nests or something else?
I had read somewhere that one of the Phoxinus spp spawned in bundles of java moss which is one reason I have it in there. That would be great it you can give me that information as I can't find anything on it.
The water is being turned over about 4x/hour. The spray bar is tilted so about a third of it is out of the water and moves the water pretty well. I'm using a classic Eheim 2213. Since the P. oreas are "pool" fish I didn't feel it necessary to add anymore current.
Are chubs truly necessary? Other species of fish that spawn in other's nests will spawn over gravel in aquaria. Is it a trigger similar to P. welaka reacting to L. megalotis that causes them to spawn in the nests or something else?
#4
Guest_ashtonmj_*
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 07:42 PM
I do not have access to that publication. Are P. cumberlandensis similar enough to use that as a basis?
I had read somewhere that one of the Phoxinus spp spawned in bundles of java moss which is one reason I have it in there. That would be great it you can give me that information as I can't find anything on it.
The water is being turned over about 4x/hour. The spray bar is tilted so about a third of it is out of the water and moves the water pretty well. I'm using a classic Eheim 2213. Since the P. oreas are "pool" fish I didn't feel it necessary to add anymore current.
Are chubs truly necessary? Other species of fish that spawn in other's nests will spawn over gravel in aquaria. Is it a trigger similar to P. welaka reacting to L. megalotis that causes them to spawn in the nests or something else?
I have the paper, somewhere, and can get it to you when I find it. I can probably dig up a few other papers on the genus for you that I just discussed with my roommate. He metioned that P. eos spawned on plants but SRBD, cumberlandensis, and oreas, spawned stictly on gravel mounds. Ecologically speaking I believe that cumberlandensis and oreas are the most similar (could probably throw in saylori too). As far as cumberlandensis, over the last two years they were observed to spawn ONLY over gravel mounds of surrogate fish and I've heard observations of the same for oreas.
#5
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 08:42 PM
Thanks Matt. I look forward to reading it.
I went back to Goldstein's American Aquarium Fishes and he states that they are "an obligate nest parasite in nature" but under the P. erythrogaster (which he states to look under for care instructions) he says to use a plastic shoe box with gravel or pebbles for a spawning site.
I'm going to need a bigger tank than what I have them in if I'm going to have mature creek/bluehead chubs.
I went back to Goldstein's American Aquarium Fishes and he states that they are "an obligate nest parasite in nature" but under the P. erythrogaster (which he states to look under for care instructions) he says to use a plastic shoe box with gravel or pebbles for a spawning site.
I'm going to need a bigger tank than what I have them in if I'm going to have mature creek/bluehead chubs.
#8
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 11:03 PM
I just thought I would add that I have spawned erythrogaster without a nest host in the tank. I also had some oreas that colored up and appeared to be spawning in a community stream tank (it had about 15 cyprinid species) but honestly I can't remember real well if I ever saw any eggs but then again there were a lot of fish in there that could have eaten them. I do remember them running towards the current with males on either side of a female like the erythrogaster did when I successfully spawned them. As far as the set up when I spawned the erythrogaster they were in a 20 long with a pile of gravel in front of a powerhead. I fed them a lot of flake food and some crushed cichlid pellets and then after I cleaned the tank/did a water change along with had a long photo period they spawned. After they had spawned I removed the adults and without knowing a whole lot about raising fry I managed to raise 15 or so on smashed up very fine flake food. This was when I was in high school still so I'm a little fuzzy on the details but I hope it helps some. I would also be careful about some of the larger nest host species like creekchub or nocomis sp. because I have had large mature ones eat smaller minnows. So I think it is definitely possible to spawn them without the host or milt from a host but I have often wondered if you could aquire milt from a host if you would increase your success rate of spawning such species.
#9
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 11:19 PM
I have no real info on breeding, but I do on larger chubs eating small fish. My experience was with a tank full of guppies that I converted to natives. The short story... creek chubs eat small fish... bluehead chubs seem to not eat small fish. That was told to me by some folks from NANFA years ago (can't remember who) but it has seemed to hold true for me over the past four or five years...
MWolfe
MWolfe
I just thought I would add that I have spawned erythrogaster without a nest host in the tank. I also had some oreas that colored up and appeared to be spawning in a community stream tank (it had about 15 cyprinid species) but honestly I can't remember real well if I ever saw any eggs but then again there were a lot of fish in there that could have eaten them. I do remember them running towards the current with males on either side of a female like the erythrogaster did when I successfully spawned them. As far as the set up when I spawned the erythrogaster they were in a 20 long with a pile of gravel in front of a powerhead. I fed them a lot of flake food and some crushed cichlid pellets and then after I cleaned the tank/did a water change along with had a long photo period they spawned. After they had spawned I removed the adults and without knowing a whole lot about raising fry I managed to raise 15 or so on smashed up very fine flake food. This was when I was in high school still so I'm a little fuzzy on the details but I hope it helps some. I would also be careful about some of the larger nest host species like creekchub or nocomis sp. because I have had large mature ones eat smaller minnows. So I think it is definitely possible to spawn them without the host or milt from a host but I have often wondered if you could aquire milt from a host if you would increase your success rate of spawning such species.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#10
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 11:20 PM
I think I'm going to try to do this without the surrogates. Some of the reports are encouraging.
I am feeding mostly veggie flakes with some earthworm flakes and frozen bloodworms in the mix. Do I need a progressive change in the photo period or could a sudden change trigger a spawn?
I will also make a pile of gravel in hopes of simulating a nest. I'm also hoping that keeping java moss in there will shelter any fry and assist in feeding them.
I am feeding mostly veggie flakes with some earthworm flakes and frozen bloodworms in the mix. Do I need a progressive change in the photo period or could a sudden change trigger a spawn?
I will also make a pile of gravel in hopes of simulating a nest. I'm also hoping that keeping java moss in there will shelter any fry and assist in feeding them.
#11
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Posted 16 January 2007 - 11:27 PM
I am not so sure about blueheads I have only ever kept a young one and it didn't get big enough to eat anyone before it jumped out to it's death. I did however watch a hornyhead scarf down a darter right in front of my face! needless to say I think I fed it to someone even bigger.
#12
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Posted 17 January 2007 - 12:33 PM
Drew I got you some of that literature together and there are plenty of references listed in those that looked useful. PM me your address. I just browsed the articles, but as I thought, it looks like all field indications indicate P. oreas are obligate nest spawners with several species. Milking a few males might be your best bet.
#13
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Posted 25 January 2007 - 09:51 PM
Got the papers Matt, thanks A LOT.
The information about the blackside dace is very helpful and was exactly what I was looking for. I've been told that Northerns and Southerns can be spawned without the introduction of chub milt but if MRBD are closer related to the blackside, it appears that is exactly what I would need. I probably need to increase my stock and holding tank.
The information about the blackside dace is very helpful and was exactly what I was looking for. I've been told that Northerns and Southerns can be spawned without the introduction of chub milt but if MRBD are closer related to the blackside, it appears that is exactly what I would need. I probably need to increase my stock and holding tank.
#15
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:51 PM
I will be freeing up a 75G for my MRBD breeding effort.
I've done a bit of reading and found that other Phoxinus species spawn in the nests of :
Semotilus atromaculatus, Creek Chub
Campostoma anomalum, Central Stoneroller
Nocomis leptocephalus, Bluehead Chub
Nocomis micropogon, River Chub
Luxilus cornutus, Common Shiner
Luxilus chrysocephalus, Striped Shiner
I'm going to attempt this with central stonerollers and see how that goes. I've also received offers from people that could supply me with chub milt.
Any helpful hints would be appreciated.
I've done a bit of reading and found that other Phoxinus species spawn in the nests of :
Semotilus atromaculatus, Creek Chub
Campostoma anomalum, Central Stoneroller
Nocomis leptocephalus, Bluehead Chub
Nocomis micropogon, River Chub
Luxilus cornutus, Common Shiner
Luxilus chrysocephalus, Striped Shiner
I'm going to attempt this with central stonerollers and see how that goes. I've also received offers from people that could supply me with chub milt.
Any helpful hints would be appreciated.
#16
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Posted 21 March 2007 - 03:08 PM
I freed up the 75g, moved the MRBD, and added central stonerollers. Stonerollers have been in there about a week now and so far, no nesting. There really is only one male in the beginning of its breeding stage, but I'm hoping the females and competition will get him started. I'm going to start feeding daily with a mix of live blackworms, frozen bloodworms, and veggie flakes. Also, I will be placing a plastic shoebox of some sort instead of the "nest" that I created.
I captured a video a couple of nights ago for anyone interested :
MRBD & Central Stoneroller video
Any additional advice would be appreciated.
I captured a video a couple of nights ago for anyone interested :
MRBD & Central Stoneroller video
Any additional advice would be appreciated.
#17
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Posted 21 March 2007 - 04:41 PM
make sure P.oreas gets plenty of veggies too, like cooked sweet potato, peas, green beans, beet greens, etc. IME they seem to need that for long term health. The streams i usually see MRBD in have little or no plants growing in current suitable for spawning, but in captivity many fish will do all sorts of unnatural things so it wouldnt surprise me if they spawn in moss too. I doubt you'll need a host fish. Use large rounded gravel or glass marbles in the spawning dish so theres plenty of interstitial space, and pour it out often to check for eggs and to remove any rotting food, planaria, etc. Dunno about Phox but my rainbow shiner eggs suffocate if theres mulm down in the spawning dish. I saw Goldstein's set-up for SRBD - shallow box of pea gravel in an otherwise bare tank, and no winter chill.
I freed up the 75g, moved the MRBD, and added central stonerollers. Stonerollers have been in there about a week now and so far, no nesting. There really is only one male in the beginning of its breeding stage, but I'm hoping the females and competition will get him started. I'm going to start feeding daily with a mix of live blackworms, frozen bloodworms, and veggie flakes. Also, I will be placing a plastic shoebox of some sort instead of the "nest" that I created.
I captured a video a couple of nights ago for anyone interested :
MRBD & Central Stoneroller video
Any additional advice would be appreciated.
#18
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Posted 22 March 2007 - 07:10 AM
For what it's worth a former grad student at ETSU in Johnson City spawned the closely related Tennessee Dace by milking Creek Chub into the tank. My guess is that this is not necessary, but if you have something like that available it couldn't hurt. I personally have seen tennesseensis spawn over Stoneroller nests in a local stream many times.
Rick
Rick
#20
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Posted 25 March 2007 - 10:22 AM
For what it's worth a former grad student at ETSU in Johnson City spawned the closely related Tennessee Dace by milking Creek Chub into the tank. My guess is that this is not necessary, but if you have something like that available it couldn't hurt. I personally have seen tennesseensis spawn over Stoneroller nests in a local stream many times.
Rick
Ok, I must have been tripping. I talked with Kevin yesterday and he did not use the Creek Chub milt. He says he told me about someone else using this method with Phoxinus cumberlandensis. Kevin says he never got the Tennessee Dace to spawn. Sorry for the confusion.
Rick
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