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Changes in the tone/content of the Forum

Started by Guest_jase_* , Mar 07 2010 11:08 AM

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#21 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:42 PM

I see why an off topic lounge wouldn't be welcome and it is not a bad thing. Maybe someone might want to be ambitious enough to start a message board for NA Native fish keepers.

One thought I had yesterday was that folks looking for a more social experience could easily use Twitter or similar services. I think it's unlikely that a complete parallel forum would gain traction (in fact, Irate Mormon tried), but there's nothing stopping people from simply tweeting with a #nanfaChat hashtag. Yeah, you're limited to 140 characters, but there's zero infrastructure to create/maintain. There may be other services that are equally good at creating ad hoc online communities without a lot of up-front effort.

Edit: As soon as I submitted this I realized it's a topic more appropriate for the original "lounge" thread. If you want to discuss further I think that would be a much better place.

Edited by jase, 08 March 2010 - 06:48 PM.

#22 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:47 PM

Lozgod-

Another native forum would be welcome. The more the merrier I say! I think you would have a hard time convincing the BOD to endorse or affiliate with a new board. From what I hear many of them were pretty reluctant to let this forum come into existence.

I don't think you need any blessing from the organization to have a friendly relationship with this board, however. I know at least one NANFAn (E_americanus) has started another fish forum (http://aquaticpredat...rums/index.php?) which is frequented by other NANFA forum-goers.

#23 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 08:01 PM

So should people without degrees or people that do not want to post about scientific matter just post somewhere else? That's how I interpreted it. Without this forum I would not of known it is bad to catch/raise/release fish that were kept as pets. Had I known that I am part of a group changing it for the worse and lowering the quality of discussion I would of never joined to find that out.

I do not want to be part of the problem though. I can make this my last post. Plenty of other forums. Tried to find one with people that share similar interests but apparently I misinterpreted the interests some of you share.

I think you're taking things a bit out of context, not reading everything completely, and a bit too personal. No one at any point said this is a place only for those with scientific degrees. Jase said absolutely nothing of the sort. However, what he did say about his observation that a few members that happen to have those degrees don't post as much was correct.

I'll say it up front, don't take this personally because this sort of gets at some of the things we generally talk about, that people can find many of their answers through simple investigation. If you didn't know it was bad to release wild caught fish that or fish that were kept as pets you didn't read your Maryland fishing rules and regulations. It's not just some hidden two sentance regulation, it's a full page. It also means that as a state, Maryland apparently needs to do even more angler outreach beyond the amount we already do. The organization has to assume that everyone knows their regulations and follows them. It is also indicative of a greater problem in the aquarium trade; the lack of effort to inform people who buy fish. In fact, I have an article in review right now about our collections of Oriental Weatherfish, which are surprise in pet stores and food markets all around the places we've found them.

I'm not sure why you said otherwise, but this forum is also about native fish keeping. We have a captive care section. We have sections about keeping native plants. We've also beat the DIY topics versus its own section to death. No one is stopping those from being made and posted in an appropriate location. The NANFA wiki thing exists if people want to make articles, but the reason why each section doesn't have 15 stickies at the top also has been explained. It's a pain in the ass to have to go to the bottome of the page to get through them. What the forum is not about is the non native fish thoughts of any forum users, so yes some of the social interaction is lost. In addition to what jase mentioned, if people here wish to have a more social experience, PM each other, email each other, get a private chat room going, or pick up the phone. I yap with farmertodd and drewish every once in a while, but most of what we talk about isn't appropriate for the forum in content and language. It's as simple as that. Sorry we can't be everything to everyone, but the common uniting theme is pretty damn good.

#24 Guest_nativeplanter_*

Guests

Posted 08 March 2010 - 08:25 PM

Easy Tiger...

See Lozgod's subsequent post from 6:25 pm.

I think Lozgod has got it right now. The forum is about native fish and native fish keeping. Not about the native fish enthusiasts themselves (Much as I'd like to talk about me... :happy:

)

I think we're all actually coming to understand each other. It's hard to talk about tone and context via typing without being able to use tone and context.

#25 Guest_jase_*

Guests

Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:24 PM

I actually had a thought the other day. This forum is about NA Native Fish. Everyone can agree on that. It isn't a forum for NA native fish keepers/keeping.

I can see why Matt read this the way he did. I think that nativeplanter is reading it right, but the final "/keeping" makes it a little confusing.

#26 Guest_wargreen_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:02 PM

We're not talking about limiting debate. We debate whether or not blackbanded sunfish REQUIRE low pH water to spawn, whether certain species require live foods, which type of filter is better than another for a stream biotope, all of that is fair game. We're talking about content that can be classified as not related to N.A. native fish and even aquarium husbandy in the broadest sense. Nearly all of this is already spelled out as being off limits/in violation of forum rules because it can frequently include the usual hot topics and also directs focus away from the uniting theme of the forum (i.e. that huge banner across the top and all the standard mission statements, code of ethics, use guidelines, etc.). So yeah, like I said it's already a rule, and really shouldn't be on the shoulders of forum staff to patrol all day and night to poke and prode people to play by the rules. Having to give little reminders personally drove me nuts. When something starts up off topic I'm not quite sure how you get it back on topic because for one the topic title must then be edited along with content. I'd also like to point out that ANY forum USER can report off topic content to a moderator using the handy "report" button off to the left. The forum users largely decide what this place looks and sounds like, so it is in a large part up to us to make it a more native fish centric place since it is generally felt things have shifted away.

We also already have a scientific discussion sub-forum for the very reasons you spell out. Not everyone wants to talk about statistical techniques to tease appart influences on darter communities or burden downed with such a complex title when us nerds start running up a threads response count.

Hmmmn, I think what I need is more info. from the veterans on this board on what you guys expect from us new users. Do you feel its unacceptable for a new enthusiastic native fish keeper to put a post in the Centrarchids section, on the fact their Pumpkinseeds just spawned? Are we allowed to ask simple questions, like which type of worms work best for an Orangespotted sunnie to bring out its breeding colors :?:

. If you guys dont like emoticons why do you have them?!? I looked at the RULES when I joined and contributed to this organization and didnt see where these questions would be prohibited......do you guys not want novices asking questions or "bragging" about their achievements
do you honestly feel that everyone should put these on Twitter; and last but not least I didnt read anyplace where it was stated this whole organization was just for experienced native fish keepers. If this is true please tell me Ive been plugging this organization on MFK to help get more tropical fishkeepers into native fish, to possible start raising endangered Desert Pupfish, Roanoke Bass, down here our Niangua darters, or like my hope to make strains of Lepomis so that vendors like Zimmerman can sell them to hobbyist instead of invasives that affect are ecosystems when someone misguidedly lets them loose; I actually thought from the mission statement this organization was trying to spread and promote ideas to the public.....please tell me if Im wrong so I can inform people on those "other sites" whether this would be the right organization for them.

Edited by Newt, 10 March 2010 - 04:18 PM.
clarity

#27 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:53 PM

No, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

If one of your main reasons for getting into native fish was to personally become active in raising endangered and imperiled species for whatever reason, because they are pretty, because you think you can individually make a difference in their survival, you're barking up the wrong tree. While the notion of public involvement in recovery actions is intriguing and should never be discounted it is riddled with potentially disasterous situations and legal nightmares. Federal, state, and some very good not for proft partnership hatercheries do a substantial and tremendous job at propagating rare fishes, but it doesn't address the fact that most of the species you mention and they raise are rare because their habitat has been significantly reduced or destroyed.

#28 Guest_daveneely_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 05:37 PM

No, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

Hey Matt, shouldn't that be no, yes, [no yes/no answer], no, no, no ?

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your sentiment.

#29 Guest_lozgod_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 05:41 PM

Ashton, one fish in my tank I actually went out and collected. Only things I collected are rocks, plants, and sand. Everything else was purchased. I have a sucker rapidly growing way bigger than his tankmates. Having not really went out and collected I had no reason to look up the laws in MD. My natural inclination is to release it vs killing it since I have an attachment to it.

That was an example of the benefit this message board serves by having laymen join up. You rant was kind of over the top. Also you apperently didn't read the post that followed the one you quoted.

I like many other people I am sure, joined the discussion board thinking it was like every other message board out there. A group of people interacting with a common interest. Now after some explaination I see it is an informational message board moreso than a socializing message board.

Many many many people are going to come after me and make the same mistake. Try and be patient with them for their benefit. It is a very easy mistake to make.

#30 Guest_jase_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 06:27 PM

Hmmmn, I think what I need is more info. from the veterans on this board on what you guys expect from us new users. Do you feel its unacceptable for a new enthusiastic native fish keeper to put a post in the Centrarchids section, on the fact their Pumpkinseeds just spawned? Are we allowed to ask simple questions, like which type of worms work best for an Orangespotted sunnie to bring out its breeding colors . If you guys dont like emoticons why do you have them?!? I looked at the RULES when I joined and contributed to this organization and didnt see where these questions would be prohibited......do you guys not want novices asking questions or "bragging" about their achievements

I think posting about your achievements is fine, as long as you're providing some info that's of potential value to others. If you got a spawning and can provide some details about water chemistry, photo period, conditioning protocol, egg laying behaviour, etc, then I think that's worthwhile to post in the appropriate fish group section. If you just want to post pics of new fry that appeared in your tank, maybe that's appropriate in Show and Tell (not sure exactly how that section is intended to be used).

Likewise, it's fine to ask even "simple" questions related to NA native fish if you've done your homework beforehand -- search Google and search the forum. If that provides some answers but you need more, post a question that includes links to the references you have already found, and let people know what still remains unanswered. You'll get a much warmer reception that way.

Personally, I wish the emoticons weren't there, or were at least limited to a few simple ones like happy/sad/goofy (yeah, they can be useful to be sure your tone is clear sometimes). And I agree with you, the Forum Guidelines could use filling out a bit more.

I think the consensus is that most of us would rather not get daily/weekly updates about any particular captive fish. If you observe some behavior that's really unusual, by all means post it. If you're writing just to say what it ate today and where its current favorite hiding spot is... better to post that to your own personal blog or whatever.

#31 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:11 PM

Hey Matt, shouldn't that be no, yes, [no yes/no answer], no, no, no ?

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your sentiment.

Yes Dave, you are correct. I had trouble keeping up with the invdivudal responses to the individual points.

#32 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:15 PM

Ashton, one fish in my tank I actually went out and collected. Only things I collected are rocks, plants, and sand. Everything else was purchased. I have a sucker rapidly growing way bigger than his tankmates. Having not really went out and collected I had no reason to look up the laws in MD. My natural inclination is to release it vs killing it since I have an attachment to it.

That was an example of the benefit this message board serves by having laymen join up. You rant was kind of over the top. Also you apperently didn't read the post that followed the one you quoted.

I like many other people I am sure, joined the discussion board thinking it was like every other message board out there. A group of people interacting with a common interest. Now after some explaination I see it is an informational message board moreso than a socializing message board.

Many many many people are going to come after me and make the same mistake. Try and be patient with them for their benefit. It is a very easy mistake to make.

You did have a reason to look at the rules, you bought a fishing license (I hope) and collected your fish from the wild under the ability granted to you by holding that license. There are regulations attached to that license, which come in a nice booklet that you get with the license, and it is your responsibility to know those regulations, whether or not you were collecting bait fish or fishing for stocked trout.

#33 Guest_lozgod_*

Guests

Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:08 PM

You did have a reason to look at the rules, you bought a fishing license (I hope) and collected your fish from the wild under the ability granted to you by holding that license. There are regulations attached to that license, which come in a nice booklet that you get with the license, and it is your responsibility to know those regulations, whether or not you were collecting bait fish or fishing for stocked trout.

ok. You're absolutely right. This is my last post in this thread.

Edited by lozgod, 10 March 2010 - 10:09 PM.

#34 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:09 PM

It seems to me that this thread is about to devolve into two extreme camps, as often happens since those of us in more towards the middle (at least on this topic if not on others) have chosen not to say much up to this point.

I think that in any organization, including this one, there is room for a diversity of opinions, and a diversity of approaches. Yes, this board (which is not NANFA... I wish everyone here woudl join but they do not) and NANFA in general is more of a scientific (I think I like that word better than academic) or naturalist board. And we benefit form it, since we can often attract the interest of a few of the professionals that study in our area of interest. But we are (by our mission statement) interested in reaching out to those who are not yet aware of our native fish... or are only recently aware... or who are trying to become more aware.

I don't think that we have any problem with 'newbies' and in fact are glad to have them. But we are interested in helping them approach the subject with the same scientific or naturalistic attitude that we are trying to promote. I think that the 'old timers' on every forum are trying to bring the 'newbies' up to a certain level of expertise... that is true here as well. Both camps will get a little frustrated at times, but that is the nature of people interacting with people. Let's not focus on the conflict, but rather the goal... NANFA is about learning about our native fish... if we are working on learning, we are on the right path... whether we know little or a lot, we need to be learning... about fish.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#35 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 10:58 PM

It seems to me that this thread is about to devolve into two extreme camps, as often happens since those of us in more towards the middle (at least on this topic if not on others) have chosen not to say much up to this point.

I think that in any organization, including this one, there is room for a diversity of opinions, and a diversity of approaches. Yes, this board (which is not NANFA... I wish everyone here woudl join but they do not) and NANFA in general is more of a scientific (I think I like that word better than academic) or naturalist board. And we benefit form it, since we can often attract the interest of a few of the professionals that study in our area of interest. But we are (by our mission statement) interested in reaching out to those who are not yet aware of our native fish... or are only recently aware... or who are trying to become more aware.

I don't think that we have any problem with 'newbies' and in fact are glad to have them. But we are interested in helping them approach the subject with the same scientific or naturalistic attitude that we are trying to promote. I think that the 'old timers' on every forum are trying to bring the 'newbies' up to a certain level of expertise... that is true here as well. Both camps will get a little frustrated at times, but that is the nature of people interacting with people. Let's not focus on the conflict, but rather the goal... NANFA is about learning about our native fish... if we are working on learning, we are on the right path... whether we know little or a lot, we need to be learning... about fish.

Really well put Michael and thanks for posting this.

I can't stress enough, this has nothing to do with new members (I don't like the word newb as is often use pejoratively). I Joined NANFA not all that long ago and I was intimidated by the level of discussion. I wanted to learn so I just listened for while. I bought books (which helped me tremendously) and when I felt I had an appropriate question, I asked after I did some homework. I still don't understand all of what's written in papers (especially the gene work) and conversations on the forum go over my head. This just tells me I still have very much to learn. Despite my ignorance, I try to complement the forum with information others can use and not stuff that might be better suited for a blog. The one exception would be my ridiculous loads of photos I post. We are all here for the fish and we came to learn but it's getting more and more difficult to wade through all of the posts these days and I believe this is unnecessary.

#36 Guest_wargreen_*

Guests

Posted 11 March 2010 - 02:42 PM

Ashtonmj please dont take this personally, but I disagree with this statement ," because you think you can individually make a difference in their survival, you're barking up the wrong tree. While the notion of public involvement in recovery actions is intriguing and should never be discounted it is riddled with potentially disasterous situations and legal nightmares." I am talking about responsible fishkeeping, that has saved many Cichlids from the African Rift lakes from extinction (hundreds of articles can be cited), and I know perfectly well whats happened to their habitat, and I know perfectly well that theres no easy, cheap fix, cash strapped states can do fix the enviroment, which is why I believe we can help along with the states and federal government. I in no way am advocating for doing anything illegal, I believe in pursuing legal means with the proper state agencies. I will defer to articles on Natives in the July bicentenial issue of TFK, and to the introduction in the book American Aquarium Fishes by Robert J. Goldstein. Thanks Joe.

#37 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guests

Posted 11 March 2010 - 03:53 PM

I have no reason to take your disagreement with my statement personally, it is your opinion that you are rightly entilted to ahve. I'll point out that just because fish were brought into captivity to save them from becoming extinct in the wild doesn't mean they've been saved. There are hundreds of articles that can be cited about that topic whether it is about fish, invertebrates, and mammals and what is lost behaviorally, genetically, and ecologically. Having a species around for posterity or the chance that decades later they can be reintroduced into their habitat are measures taken as extreme last resorts.

Edited by ashtonmj, 11 March 2010 - 04:15 PM.

#38 Guest_wargreen_*

Guests

Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:06 AM

I have no reason to take your disagreement with my statement personally, it is your opinion that you are rightly entilted to ahve. I'll point out that just because fish were brought into captivity to save them from becoming extinct in the wild doesn't mean they've been saved. There are hundreds of articles that can be cited about that topic whether it is about fish, invertebrates, and mammals and what is lost behaviorally, genetically, and ecologically. Having a species around for posterity or the chance that decades later they can be reintroduced into their habitat are measures taken as extreme last resorts.

I agree one hundred percent.....we should try to save their habitat first; and I agree it is a extreme last resort to have endangered fish as pets in captivity to try and save them, but I think it is very scary how many Pupfish and Darters (these are just the fish I know about)that live in very isolated, small geographical areas that run a very high risk of becoming extinct from either exotics or pollution, some of which I feel could not only be kept by state and federal agencies (and in many cases need to be)....but also by fish enthusiasts (after the state agencies have done their part trying to protect their habitat, and are raising and stocking endangered fish from hatcheries). This of course is just my opinion.....I certainly dont believe in people just going out and collecting endangered fish from the wild to try and save them; and I understand your concern about that happening, I would like to see state or even private hatcheries propagating these species in a controlled enviroment and then allowing hobbyist to have access to some of the excess offspring. PS I made a mistake in the earlier post it was the July 2003 issue of TFH not the JUly bicentenial issue that had the articles.

#39 Guest_jase_*

Guests

Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:31 AM

we should try to save their habitat first; and I agree it is a extreme last resort to have endangered fish as pets in captivity to try and save them, but [...]

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