On a side to the comments Jase made...I believe the forum has changed significantly in the last year. We might not look like a bunch of 13 year-olds texting but the substance of the forum has been greatly diluted by irrelevant topics/posts, topics that could have been answered with little investigation and topics just to start conversation. Academic participation has dropped off and possibly due to the time it takes to wade through the chatter.

Yes it has, yes that is why, and yes that is a correct observation.

Now that you mention it, I've noticed this and I don't think it's an improvement.

I hope folks don't mind me starting a new thread on this, but conversation in the other thread in response to my comment expanded beyond discussing a proposed "Lounge".

There's no question that the tone of the Forum has changed rather dramatically over the past year. There is certainly more "chatter" than there used to be, and the average quality of discussion seems lower. If that's dissuading some of the more serious/knowledgeable folks from taking part, that's definitely a problem. Active participation by everyone from casual hobbyists to PhDs in the field is one of NANFA's greatest strengths, and not something to lose without a fight.

To be frank, I think most of this "chatter" comes from a very small group of mostly newer participants and would be relatively simple to reduce. By no means do I see this as a case of long-term participants not welcoming newer ones, but rather a bit of a divide between people who view the forum as a place to learn and share information, and those who see it as a place to "hang out" and chit-chat. I think this is a case where moderators should not be concerned about seeming "heavy handed" in shaping the overall direction of the Forum.

Jase, good example of a topic split (thanks).

I agree with everything posted above but staff gets called Nazi's one week and the next we need to do more. I can't speak for anyone but myself but I'd say staff morale isn't at an all time high and dealing with the fallout from acting as "Nazi's" takes far more time than just doing what needs to be done.

And yes, I come here to talk native fish because I don't have anyone in my inner circle who does. When I come wanting to talk fish but don't see anything interesting, I guess I dilute the forum with my "irrelevant topics/posts".

Mike, you definitely don't need to worry about being seen as part of the chatter. I agree with Uland in that I assume stuff with your name on it will be intelligent and interesting.

I noticed too, but rather than blaming the newer posters who are still feeling the way into the forum, I blame the lack of participation of many key members. I know they're on the water and I know they're taking sweet pics, where are the posts???

You're right, it's definitely not just that there's more inane chatter, there seems to be less quality stuff. It strikes me that there used to be roughly the same number of new posts per day as there are now, but a lot more of them were worth reading. From what Uland and Matt are saying, though, it sounds like the drivel may be what's reducing participation from some of those who had lots of interesting things to say. That's bad.

You're right, it's definitely not just that there's more inane chatter, there seems to be less quality stuff. It strikes me that there used to be roughly the same number of new posts per day as there are now, but a lot more of them were worth reading. From what Uland and Matt are saying, though, it sounds like the drivel may be what's reducing participation from some of those who had lots of interesting things to say. That's bad.

No, I think there isn't much of a drop in quality posting so much as there is definitely more inane chatter. And I agree that it is annoying to wade through a bunch of posts thinking that some of them might be pertinent to native fish only to find that they are very basic aquarium keeping topics such as cycling a new tank, or today's antics of a captive large game fish. (The antics are certainly interesting to the viewer, but it gets a little repetitive and old hearing about it second hand so many times from so many people). In fact, upon looking just right now, I think the game fish topics might be where many of these types of posts come from. If I look at the Sunfish and Basses forum under Fish Groups, right now it has 532 topics. The other fish group forums have about 200 or much less; the biggest being Darters and Perches with 219 topics. The Sunfish and Basses forum is only exceeded by General Discussion, Captive Care, and Collecting and Sampling Discussion, the largest being Captive Care with 780 topics. And now that I think about it, I haven't been bothering to read most of the posts in the Sunfish and Basses forum any more because they do consist of so much chatter. I'm not trying to point any fingers and make anyone in specific feel badly, and I have been guilty of posting pointless chatter myself, and the chatter isn't restricted to the Sunfish and Bass forum, but yes, there is a lot more chatter out there than there used to be.

There may be less "quality stuff", but I don't think it's exceedingly less. Some of it may be because academic-types are bored with the chatter, and some may be because many topics have been discussed before and don't really need to be rehashed because a simple search brings them up (I agree that the search function here isn't the best, but that doesn't change why people might not post). But really, there used to be a lot fewer posts on this forum a couple years ago. Granted it was newer and had fewer members, but I could pretty much be guaranteed that whatever was posted was intellectually interesting.

Also, I think some people may not be aware of the history of NANFA member discussion and what it used to be like before the forum. It used to be an e-mail listerve consisting largely of academians and hobbiests that were seriously into science, conservation, and such. I only found it by searching one day when I said to myself, "gee... my native plant tanks seem a little silly with guppies; I wonder if there are any native fish that can be kept in aquariums?" Who knew there was a whole Society. There were indeed a few native fish newbies like myself who did ask what were probably simple questions in the minds of others on the board, but I seem to recall these types of posts were only when they were really pertient to native fish and collecting, not general captive care of common species (like my first post when my first collection didn't survive travel in a 5-gallon bucket well and I needed advice on how to collect wild fish). Thankfully there were a number of patient people who introduced me to the specifics of the hobby and took me collecting. Like I said above, these were all academians or hobbiests that were seriously into science and conservation. (I don't mean to imply that regular hobbiests aren't as worthy or anything, it's just that it seems to be a distinctly separate group with different interests. And actually, there were other listserves at the time that existed for these groups.)

I don't know what the solution is. It isn't very nice when folks call the moderators and administrators things like Nazis for doing their best to keep the forum on topic with a science and conservation focus. Moderating can take a lot of work at times, and the administrators do even more work. Right now I don't feel particularly motivated to moderate more strongly and direct chatter elsewhere, because of the work involved and because people give you grief for it. In thinking about having an off-topic forum, I have recently decided that I hope we don't start one because I don't want to have to deal with it. I'm a moderator, and I don't want to be a babysitter. I know that sounds harsh, but that's where I am right now. I am, however, glad that Jase brought this up as a topic so perhaps we can find some solutions that will keep the quality of converstion high. I just don't know what they are right now.

I don't know what the answer is, either. We need new members to keep the forum growing, or at least not declining in numbers. Not everyone has to be an academic, but we need people who will participate in a constructive manner, not people who will insult the moderators and support staff for doing their jobs. Their unpaid jobs. They are the ones who have made this forum the valuable resource it is.

I have to say that I love Mod gripe threads
As a mod here, I took a job that I knew wasn't always going to full of roses so I'll stop griping about name calling from newer members unfamiliar with the platform here. I might still get my feathers ruffled from the name calling from seasoned NANFA members but that's really due to my thin skin.

I really want to stress that members alone make this a great place. Mods (I use mod and staff interchangeably) just try and get rid of the bad stuff and guide when possible. All good forums have one thing in common and that's a base of great members. Pat yourselves on the back if you like the forum and perhaps try and guide the conversations if you feel the forum could use improvement. Sure mods are responsible for the layout of the forum and we'll have to keep listening to the membership for guidance in that department.

I think I have an answer to right the direction of the forum but it's a bit ugly. The mods here are a great group and they have a combined set of instincts I trust. We can't make a published rule for every thread that simply does not belong and we can't spend a bunch of time explaining every time we "do stuff". I say let the mods do what they feel is best for the forum and don't expect explanations from them...they're just trying to do their job. Don't feel offended when a thread/post gets deleted/closed and don't start new threads about how horrible the mods are for deleting/closing a post/topic.

Don't get wound up folks. This is an awesome forum with great moderators.
I've noticed across the broad range of topical forums I participate in that experienced long time posters are leaving forums right and left. I believe we are seeing the natural evolution of a creature that did not exist for most of us a decade ago.
People are trending back toward the more private forms of communication.
What we're seeing here is normal and compared to the self destruction of some of the local fishing forums, really not too worrisome.

I really want to stress that members alone make this a great place. Mods (I use mod and staff interchangeably) just try and get rid of the bad stuff and guide when possible. All good forums have one thing in common and that's a base of great members. Pat yourselves on the back if you like the forum and perhaps try and guide the conversations if you feel the forum could use improvement. Sure mods are responsible for the layout of the forum and we'll have to keep listening to the membership for guidance in that department.

Hear hear! This is very very true. The fact that this forum is the only one I visit these days is because it isn't like the others and our members are great about getting along and are willing to think critically about issues instead of just spouting off. (Hmmmm. I suppose unlike my previous cranky post.) Everyone out there really does make this forum a great place which I why I volunter time for it. It's sort of like how the referee doesn't make for a great game; it's the teams playing that make it exciting and the ref is just there to keep it going and keep the ball from going out of bounds. Except that we don't have opposing teams.

Susan - I think I might have given a bit of the wrong impression - I use the term academic not as a profession but as someone who is interested in serious study. People in all sorts of professions can be academic in their interests. The fact that they don't do it as a profession doesn't have much bearing on the quality of conversation.

And we do need new members. Part of NANFA's mission is to reach out into the community. I think that has been one of the biggest benefits of this forum.

Can you tell I've been working indoors all weekend and not getting enough sleep? I'm usually not this cranky.

Susan - I think I might have given a bit of the wrong impression - I use the term academic not as a profession but as someone who is interested in serious study. People in all sorts of professions can be academic in their interests. The fact that they don't do it as a profession doesn't have much bearing on the quality of conversation.

No, I agree with you. That's a good way to put it. I'm not a professional anything to do with fish, but I enjoy talking to and learning from the experts here.

I am sorry if I was the cause of this. I feel I likely have a part in it as one of the new people here.

I was both filled with clueless newbie questions being new to aquariums, and used to forums that had room *either in the main discussion or in a sub forum) for light but on topic chit=chat or joking around. I am sorry if I was a bother to you.

I think we're all trying to make it clear that no one individual should feel responsible or singled out by this discussion, so please don't. If you were, you probably wouldn't have seen something you posted removed or been contacted. Just people participating and making an effort to beter the forum is I think all anyone really can hope and ask for.

Maybe a mod could do a bit of merging on that "lounge" thread to here? I tried to split it when the topic shifted, but there is still pretty much the same conversation going on in two parallel threads.

Phil, I also want the membership to provide accurate topic titles, and refrain from flooding the forum with silly topics of little to no value. If I had my way, I'd simply dump those topics but then I get the "free speech" gang breathing down my neck. Either you trust the mods here or you don't and I think most folks don't like the mods "doing stuff" so here we are, a forum with inaccurate topic titles and many topics of little to no value.

Uland, I'd wager that most folks actually appreciate it when moderators intervene to keep things on topic. It's just that folks who don't like it tend to be more vocal, and don't mind cluttering up a thread with their objections. There have been many times when I've wanted to just post a "thank you" when a moderator attempts to refocus or end a silly thread -- but often the thread is locked and I can't post it, or it seems like just more useless clutter to post a reply saying thanks. Would it be better to say "thanks" publicly so that others see it, privately via PM, or is it just more OT stuff to read?

I think I have an answer to right the direction of the forum but it's a bit ugly. The mods here are a great group and they have a combined set of instincts I trust. We can't make a published rule for every thread that simply does not belong and we can't spend a bunch of time explaining every time we "do stuff". I say let the mods do what they feel is best for the forum and don't expect explanations from them...they're just trying to do their job. Don't feel offended when a thread/post gets deleted/closed and don't start new threads about how horrible the mods are for deleting/closing a post/topic.

I also trust the mods and would like to see more intervention, but I don't think doing much more without some extremely minimal explanation will create a better atmosphere. You absolutely don't need to engage in a lengthy conversation (or even any "conversation") each time you take an action, but I think posting a one-line explanation would be a time investment that would be paid back many times over as newer participants start to understand what you're doing and why. I think Drew used to be very good at this when he was more active -- intervened quite a bit, but almost always with a few words as to why. Something like "Off-topic, see guidelines link at top right", "Moved to appropriate forum", or "Changed title to reflect content" takes seconds to type and at least lets people know what's going on and gives the opportunity to learn from mistakes.

I think it would help to invest just a little more in fleshing out the Forum Guidelines, including maybe something like "About this Forum / How the Forum is Run". As it is now, there isn't even anything indicating what sort of topics are encouraged/discouraged. Yes, that would take a bit of time by someone, but putting a bit more there could save moderators the time of having to repeat it so often. I don't expect that the people who cause problems would seek out and read the info themselves, but nice to have something to post a link to as explanation when needed.

There's no reason whatsoever that moderators should tolerate name calling or criticism that lacks any respect or acknowledgment of the hours mods put in. In my mind, it's fairly easy to distinguish constructive criticism from just being immature and combative. I've disagreed with moderators on a few occasions, but I certainly never come here just looking for a fight. If someone simply doesn't like the type of community the moderators strive to create here, I see no reason not to suggest that they find a forum more to their liking.

I for one, will avoid the "lounge talk". If it becomes too prevalent, then I will look for another forum that has less which may be difficult to find. Even now, this is the most informative forum I have seen in part becuase of the range of experiences contributors have. Some of the interesting observations / ideas have come from parties just starting to explore aquatic organisms. Some of the material I have been having to sift through is more suitable for other forums, especially those with interests centered on sport fishing or culture of established food fishes.

I am partial to those interested in sport / food fishes for which minimal information has been developed and think such information is suitable for this forum so long as it provides greater understanding of husbandry / biological requirments. Comparing notes on daily behavior and growths as a function diets that are from commercial sources do not excite me.

Jase, good example of a topic split (thanks).

I agree with everything posted above but staff gets called Nazi's one week and the next we need to do more. I can't speak for anyone but myself but I'd say staff morale isn't at an all time high and dealing with the fallout from acting as "Nazi's" takes far more time than just doing what needs to be done.

I feel as a new member ,(and one who Im sure asks alot of questions); NANFA needs to decide if theyre trying to make this an elite club for experts (with no room for debate)or a organization trying to spread the word on conservation, collecting and raising of native fishes to the public. I believe having forums for advanced husbandry and scientific discussion, and other forums for even fishing or native fish watching (some could be closed forums for members over 500 posts for the more advanced aquarists) could alleviate much of the problem. Moderators are in a very difficult position because many new members (which I assume you want) are just learning and join NANFA from websites like Monster Fish Keepers (I learned about NANFA from and told others about in) and AquaCentral just for the senior members expertise on native fish, but are used to being able to post in a very friendly open atmosphere (like on MFK): if the moderators can nicely redirect the questions and guide the newbies conversations back to the topic, I believe it will help the organization grow and the knowledge of native fishkeeping and conservation to grow also; if the new members are harshly critisized and excluded......then its only logical to expect Nanfa to not grow and the message to not reach as many people. I personally came to NANFA because of a NANFA member on MFK where I had learned more about my two Green sunfish and how to care for them (theyre all called either "bream" or "goggle eye" by my wifes family down here)and that I was not the only one keeping Lepomis in an Aquarium at home. Since then Ive learned so much thanks to Centrarchid, Smbass and others that will make me a more successfull native fishkeeper and conservationist (which Ive been for many years). I hope you guys can find a happy medium that will please most of the newbies (like me) and the veterans (like you guys)and that will make NANFA "live long and prosper" .....(yeah I just watched the new Star Trek over the weekend). I gotta get to work...Thanks for letting me give my input, Joe.

I feel as a new member ,(and one who Im sure asks alot of questions); NANFA needs to decide if theyre trying to make this an elite club for experts (with no room for debate)or a organization trying to spread the word on conservation, collecting and raising of native fishes to the public. I believe having forums for advanced husbandry and scientific discussion, and other forums for even fishing or native fish watching (some could be closed forums for members over 500 posts for the more advanced aquarists) could alleviate much of the problem.

We're not talking about limiting debate. We debate whether or not blackbanded sunfish REQUIRE low pH water to spawn, whether certain species require live foods, which type of filter is better than another for a stream biotope, all of that is fair game. We're talking about content that can be classified as not related to N.A. native fish and even aquarium husbandy in the broadest sense. Nearly all of this is already spelled out as being off limits/in violation of forum rules because it can frequently include the usual hot topics and also directs focus away from the uniting theme of the forum (i.e. that huge banner across the top and all the standard mission statements, code of ethics, use guidelines, etc.). So yeah, like I said it's already a rule, and really shouldn't be on the shoulders of forum staff to patrol all day and night to poke and prode people to play by the rules. Having to give little reminders personally drove me nuts. When something starts up off topic I'm not quite sure how you get it back on topic because for one the topic title must then be edited along with content. I'd also like to point out that ANY forum USER can report off topic content to a moderator using the handy "report" button off to the left. The forum users largely decide what this place looks and sounds like, so it is in a large part up to us to make it a more native fish centric place since it is generally felt things have shifted away.

We also already have a scientific discussion sub-forum for the very reasons you spell out. Not everyone wants to talk about statistical techniques to tease appart influences on darter communities or burden downed with such a complex title when us nerds start running up a threads response count.

I hope folks don't mind me starting a new thread on this, but conversation in the other thread in response to my comment expanded beyond discussing a proposed "Lounge".

There's no question that the tone of the Forum has changed rather dramatically over the past year. There is certainly more "chatter" than there used to be, and the average quality of discussion seems lower. If that's dissuading some of the more serious/knowledgeable folks from taking part, that's definitely a problem. Active participation by everyone from casual hobbyists to PhDs in the field is one of NANFA's greatest strengths, and not something to lose without a fight.

To be frank, I think most of this "chatter" comes from a very small group of mostly newer participants and would be relatively simple to reduce. By no means do I see this as a case of long-term participants not welcoming newer ones, but rather a bit of a divide between people who view the forum as a place to learn and share information, and those who see it as a place to "hang out" and chit-chat. I think this is a case where moderators should not be concerned about seeming "heavy handed" in shaping the overall direction of the Forum.

So should people without degrees or people that do not want to post about scientific matter just post somewhere else? That's how I interpreted it. Without this forum I would not of known it is bad to catch/raise/release fish that were kept as pets. Had I known that I am part of a group changing it for the worse and lowering the quality of discussion I would of never joined to find that out.

I do not want to be part of the problem though. I can make this my last post. Plenty of other forums. Tried to find one with people that share similar interests but apparently I misinterpreted the interests some of you share.

So should people without degrees or people that do not want to post about scientific matter just post somewhere else?

No one is suggesting that. The issue is off-topic discussion, and the topic is and will remain North American native fishes. Anything that is not about North American native fishes is not appropriate for this forum. Anything that is about North American native fishes- whether a scientific topic or captive care or collecting techniques - is fine. Some posts really strain that connection, and the mods have to make tough decisions about which of these to allow and which not.

We don't want to run people off, and we don't want to make this an academics-only forum. We just don't want this small and specialized forum to be swamped in unrelated conversation- a very real danger.

FirstChAoS, wargreen, and lozgod, I think you guys are all missing what people are saying here. Anyone who is enthusiastic about NA native fish is very welcome on the NANFA Forum. No one is talking about who belongs here, but rather what content belongs here. Read a little more carefully, and you'll see that most of us are explicitly saying that the diversity of people with all different backgrounds and experience levels is a big part of what makes NANFA such an interesting group.

The NANFA Forum is fairly different in tone than other forums on the web (including other fish forums) and I don't think that's an accident. When folks first suggested moving discussion from the old e-mail list to a forum, I was one who argued against it on the grounds that most forums I had experience with were filled with an awful lot of garbage: animated avatars and signature images, many emoticons/smileys per post, one-word replies, innuendo and inside jokes, text messaging abbreviations, zero attention to spelling and grammar, etc. I was pretty amazed to see that it didn't go that direction, and I credit the moderators and early adopters with setting a tone that's a little more mature.

You don't need to be scientist or PhD to post here, but it is worth remembering that experts in the field with extremely limited time may well be reading your posts. Maintaining an atmosphere that is still relevant to academics and professionals is definitely in the best interest of the Forum community. There aren't many places on the web where you can pose a question and have a good chance of getting an answer from one of the top authorities in the field.

Edited by jase, 08 March 2010 - 05:21 PM.

Well said, Jase. I poke around at various other fish forums, and its always a matter of sifting through a godawful amount of irrelevant dross to find the few nuggets of valuable information. This forum is a refreshing change; the valuable info is right there at the forefront. I hope it stays that way.

I see what you are saying. I actually had a thought the other day. This forum is about NA Native Fish. Everyone can agree on that. It isn't a forum for NA native fish keepers/keeping.

I see why an off topic lounge wouldn't be welcome and it is not a bad thing. Maybe someone might want to be ambitious enough to start a message board for NA Native fish keepers. Something that has the elements this is missing. Lounge, DIY articles, aquarium stickies, etc.

Took a while to understand that this isn't that place. Actually took the last post to catch that. I have no problem with that. This doesn't seem to be a For-Profit forum. A forum interested in profits does things to increase membership numbers to attract paid advertising and this message board obviously doesn't put profit before it's purpose which is admirable.

What would the powers that be of this message board think about someone creating a board like I described above, endorsing NANFA's principles (collecting, keeping, euthanizing, etc), but more in the direction mentioned above? Now of course no one needs your opinion/permission to start their own message board, but your blessing would be needed for a loose affiliation. I am sure the earlier core members would be members from here. Therefore discussion and planning would have to be discussed which would require some kind of communication via this board even if it were just private messages stating to meet somewhere else to discuss the starting of another board.

Nothing is planned or anything but the thought hit me and I was wondering what you guys thought about it.