Dramatic new changes for 2010

I think if states want to make this type of law, a permit for our activities seems reasonable. We're willing to compensate the regulatory agency for their time....sheesh!
I know we're a minute portion of society but most states I'm familiar with have such a permitting system in place already. Just jack up the fee's to weed out people who aren't serious about it.

I don't disagree with you either Uland, but I don't see why they would really care to go out of their way for a little more revenue and more to manage (which if you want to see one of these guys explode, ask them to do just a little more).

I guess that's my problem being fundamentally moderate. Everything is a big ol' shade of gray. And I can totally see this from their perspective, no matter how much I dislike it.

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 21 March 2010 - 03:12 PM.

I guess I don't see what's more to manage honestly. It's just pushing paper and paper that already exists. It's not as if more enforcement would be required; just language to specify what you can and cannot do with the permit.

Uland, I totally get your logic and how it seemds to be counterintuitive. I also spoke with the permit person in TN this August and as a former permit holder I was essentially given a similar answer to Todd. I even said, I'd rather have you get the data and the money than buy the fishing license AND I'll likely be with one or two people that already have permits, and he said something along the line of yeah I see your point, I don't disagree, but just go aheadwith the license.

If it's anything like the education and rehabilitation permits, TWRA officers would be required to inspect the premises of the permit-holder a certain number of times each year, to be sure proper conditions are being maintained and that the reported animals are the same actually being held. A permit like the scientific collecting permit, which only requires a year-end accounting of animals collected, would be less labor-intensive, but the scientific collecting permit is different because pickled animals are difficult to reintroduce into the wild.

There is the notion that "It is not convenient for us" is not a valid reason for the stewards of a resource, which belongs to the citizenry, to deny the citizenry use of that resource. Of course that gets you into a theoretical argument which will not likely impress law enforcement officers, who are notoriously impervious to theory.

Yes, yes and yes But I'd be careful how you spend their "paper pushing" time. It's not like they're standing around waiting for requests for permits, although that'd be ideal for us, no? While some states are very efficient, others are underfunded and are required to wear a TON of hats in addition to their permit responsibilities. You'd be really surprised at some of the stuff these guys are required to do.

Todd

Inspection of premises isn't just handing over a permit so I'll retract my previous statement (I simply wasn't aware that was a requirement of the permit). That's taxing to staff and costly but I could make an argument that it might not be necessary in all cases...spot inspections might be just dandy for fish and altogether unnecessary for individuals. I assume that permit cover mammals and herps primarily for zoo's and nature centers?

Probably more so birds than anything else (raptor rehab, etc), but there are a few places that have mammals. And what's goofy is, those places aren't supposed to have fish! (this makes me shake like Lewis Black)

But yeah, go easy on your permit people, they're just the "messengers". I got a whole new perspective when one of our close friends started working at a US F&W field office. I found out the amazing amount of other stuff these people have to do on top of maintaining the hundreds of permits they're responsible for because their bosses think it's just pushing paper too, and are trying to optimize the common taxpayer's dollar.

I guess it's more like "hate the game, not the player"

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 22 March 2010 - 08:28 AM.

Todd, If my comments appeared to denigrate those who issue permits, I have failed my point completely.

I know that was not your intention because I know you. But I've gotten myself in a heap of trouble with statements that are open to interpretation to anyone reading them on the Internet, and I don't want that to happen to anyone else. I just thought it should be clarified

Todd

Did anyone find out if your fish are "grandfathered in", or if there is anyway to legally buy non-native to Tennessee North American natives from local LFS's or the mail?

Did anyone find out if your fish are "grandfathered in", or if there is anyway to legally buy non-native to Tennessee North American natives from local LFS's or the mail?

The way I am reading the regulations it appears you may be able to keep Lepomis sunfish for bait purposes only. Cannot purchase them if over 4" in length. These are the fish I was primarily interested in. You will have to read the appropriate regs and/or consult TWRA yourself for further clarification (good luck with that). I have transferred my sunfish and flagfin shiners to someone with a scientific collecting permit. It's obvious to me that my state is not interested in people keeping native fish species in home aquaria for any reason. I will just be content with keeping exotics and enjoy watching the natives while snorkeling. Considering some of the other things going on in the state, it may be time for a move anyway. I'm right on the VA state line, so it wouldn't take much for me to move over there.

Wow, a man who's willing to move for his fish. Now that's dedication!

Wow, a man who's willing to move for his fish. Now that's dedication!

Haha. I'm just being a butthole, Laura. It's not just the fish, it's a lot of other things as well. Besides, VA is only 5 miles away...so don't give me too much credit. Maybe I should just concentrate on planted tanks. Wonder if I can still collect hornwort?

I must say that I'm not surprised by this move, as it seems that TN is a bit more touchy on the subject of non-game fish. However, as a person that lives close to TN and enjoy's their fish, I am saddened by this. (I guess Dollywood is the only thing left to do in the Pigeon Forge area) I had a large, male adult Warpaint shiner that I've had for nearly a year that passed away last weekend. I have another juvenile, but was looking forward to collecting another this year. Where else can you readily find warpaints and saffron's, VA?


VA Regs

josh you can find both the fishes you posted in VA. and rick me and a few guys stayed in kingsport, TN when we fished down in VA. woulda been nice to meet up with you when we were down there.

josh you can find both the fishes you posted in VA. and rick me and a few guys stayed in kingsport, TN when we fished down in VA. woulda been nice to meet up with you when we were down there.

I'm glad you said something about this. I've stayed in Kingsport before while collecting in VA and took fish back to the hotel. I guess we'll want to avoid this in the future.

The way I am reading the regulations it appears you may be able to keep Lepomis sunfish for bait purposes only. Cannot purchase them if over 4" in length. These are the fish I was primarily interested in. You will have to read the appropriate regs and/or consult TWRA yourself for further clarification (good luck with that). I have transferred my sunfish and flagfin shiners to someone with a scientific collecting permit. It's obvious to me that my state is not interested in people keeping native fish species in home aquaria for any reason. I will just be content with keeping exotics and enjoy watching the natives while snorkeling. Considering some of the other things going on in the state, it may be time for a move anyway. I'm right on the VA state line, so it wouldn't take much for me to move over there.

I would definately check the regs more if I was living there.....but it sounds like you could possibly breed fish you already own for bait, I guess that means you could have any fish considered a "baitfish" to keep and raise.....or am I wrong in believing that from the info given ?

The 4" cutoff is for taking sunfish by methods approved for bait collection; individuals over 4" are treated as game fish and must be taken by approved game fish methods. I'm sure you can also still purchase the usual assortment of fish with which to stock your pond, and can harvest those fish for use as bait if they are on the Class I or Class II bait species list.

I'm glad you said something about this. I've stayed in Kingsport before while collecting in VA and took fish back to the hotel. I guess we'll want to avoid this in the future.

Yep. And if I can't fish in TN, and have to go to KY, on the way back I'm gassing up at the southern-most gas station on I-75 in KY, and holding my bladder until I hit the Georgia Welcome Station.

OTOH ... if you're just "looking at fish", and perhaps hoisting them out of the water only to take pictures .... would you need a fishing license?

Absolutely. Catch and release still requires a license. The only way you would not need a license is if you are not catching the fish- if you're just in the water taking in situ photos, no license is needed.