Let's go easier on new members collecting/keeping fish they shouldn't be.

Other threads recently have gotten me thinking about how best to handle it when a new forum participant admits to collecting or keeping fish not permitted by state laws or not appropriate for an aquarium. Obviously, NANFA as a whole and the Forum community need to unequivocally promote following all applicable laws. However, I think we often come off a little too harsh on people who honestly don't know any better, and maybe shouldn't even be expected to know better.

To those of us who have been around a while, we're pretty familiar with what's allowed and what isn't, why you shouldn't release captive fish, etc. I think maybe we have a hard time looking at things from the perspective of someone just getting started who hasn't heard any of this before. Probably most of us caught and temporarily kept snakes, turtles, toads, tadpoles, etc. as kids/teenagers without any consideration whatsoever of whether that's legal. It's reasonable to expect anglers to be familiar with fish and game laws, but I think many people collecting their first few small fish for an aquarium don't even realize that they're technically "fishing" and that those laws apply.

The point is that we definitely want people who just started keeping native fish and are excited about it to stick around long enough to learn how to do so responsibly. When someone first posts about a fish that they really shouldn't be keeping, I think it'd be a good idea to say some encouraging things ("yeah, that is a really neat fish") along with a fairly gentle nudge to check state laws. If folks are familiar with that state's laws, it would also be nice to suggest alternative fish that can be collected, or vendors where fish can legally be purchased. We also shouldn't necessarily expect someone to completely "get it" the first time it's said -- might take a few repetitions before it really sinks in.

Edited by jase, 11 March 2010 - 12:06 PM.

Careful phrasing would help. "Please don't take this personally, but..." "Not everyone is aware of this, but..." "That's a really easy mistake to make and lots of people have made it..." etc.

Other threads recently have gotten me thinking about how best to handle it when a new forum participant admits to collecting or keeping fish not permitted by state laws or not appropriate for an aquarium. Obviously, NANFA as a whole and the Forum community need to unequivocally promote following all applicable laws. However, I think we often come off a little too harsh on people who honestly don't know any better, and maybe shouldn't even be expected to know better.

To those of us who have been around a while, we're pretty familiar with what's allowed and what isn't, why you shouldn't release captive fish, etc. I think maybe we have a hard time looking at things from the perspective of someone just getting started who hasn't heard any of this before. Probably most of us caught and temporarily kept snakes, turtles, toads, tadpoles, etc. as kids/teenagers without any consideration whatsoever of whether that's legal. It's reasonable to expect anglers to be familiar with fish and game laws, but I think many people collecting their first few small fish for an aquarium don't even realize that they're technically "fishing" and that those laws apply.

The point is that we definitely want people who just started keeping native fish and are excited about it to stick around long enough to learn how to do so responsibly. When someone first posts about a fish that they really shouldn't be keeping, I think it'd be a good idea to say some encouraging things ("yeah, that is a really neat fish") along with a fairly gentle nudge to check state laws. If folks are familiar with that state's laws, it would also be nice to suggest alternative fish that can be collected, or vendors where fish can legally be purchased. We also shouldn't necessarily expect someone to completely "get it" the first time it's said -- might take a few repetitions before it really sinks in.

Careful phrasing would help. "Please don't take this personally, but..." "Not everyone is aware of this, but..." "That's a really easy mistake to make and lots of people have made it..." etc.

Good call. I think especially acknowledging that many of us have made similar mistakes in the past is a good approach. That avoids an immediate "us against you" sort of feeling.

Careful phrasing would help. "Please don't take this personally, but..." "Not everyone is aware of this, but..." "That's a really easy mistake to make and lots of people have made it..." etc.

This is exactly what we should be doing. Also good to keep in mind is that it is terribly easy to accidentally be harsh/insulting/etc. when typing on emails or forums, because we don't have the luxury of voice inflection. I spend a lot of time reviewing my posts before I hit the "send" button, just to be sure they aren't likely to be misunderstood. A simple statement like "What you did is illegal; there are laws regarding the issue and you should know them" could be interpreted as factual by one person and as scolding or getting yelled at by another. By re-reading, hitting the backspace button a lot, and rephrasing, I try to be sure my comments aren't misunderstood. Not just to prevent hurting feelings, but because, after all, they are my comments and I want them to be understood the way I intended them. I don't always succeed, but I do go back and improve most of my posts after I read them using the "preview" button. (For example, I just added that last sentence.)

Another thing that may be worth thinking about - we have a few forum members who are in foreign countries. We're are pretty understanding about how things might be phrased differently from what we would use to express the same thoughts. What's easy to forget about is that the US forum members are from all over the country, and there are very different standards of communication and politeness in different areas. But it's easy to forget, because we're all from the same country, right? But if you think about it, people on the west coast have a different way of expressing themselves than New Yorkers, and when combined with typing, it can lead to misunderstanding. When I moved from the Boston area (where I was raised) to go to grad school in Georgia at the age of 25, all my lab students thought I was the meanest person ever. After they got used to me, and after I learned some of the local social mannerisms better, they realized that I was cracking sarcastic jokes all the time.

I don't mean to suggest that everyone has to write and re-write drafts of their posts or constantly worry about offending others. I just think it's something that's good to keep dusted off in the back of the brain while writing.

Nativeplanter, that was an excellent post, I am from the midwest and live in what many consider to be the south. Politeness is expected, and if not given can cause hurt feelings, anger, and down here in the Ozarks often retribution. I love the knowledge Ive learned from this forum and would like to see more people get that knowledge.....but if people get treated rudely or flamed, it either starts a flame war (a waste of time) or causes people to leave and stop contributing to the organization their, ideas,time and money; and even possibly keep other potential members from joining (most people dont want to join a unfriendly organization). Thanks Joe.

I entirely agree with everything that has been said on this topic thus far. As a native West-Coaster, I know too that culture shock can be a source of misunderstanding between regions. And I too, have, in my younger years, been guilty of wrongdoing without ill intent. I think everyone is a little ignorant of the rules and standards set by governments as well as this organization when they delve into a hobby/profession such as this.

But we are indeed in the business of trying to foster interest in native fish. If someone comes to us with a natural, budding interest, the absolute most important thing we can do it nurture and encourage the growth of that interest. With that attitude, we can change a simple curiosity into a love, passion, or obsession (and in my case, all of the above) for native fish and their appreciation/conservation. This is good for newbies. This is good for our organization. And ultimately and most importantly, this is good for the fish.

So relax guys! We are ultimately all here to learn and have fun. Right?

Other threads recently have gotten me thinking about how best to handle it when a new forum participant admits to collecting or keeping fish not permitted by state laws or not appropriate for an aquarium. Obviously, NANFA as a whole and the Forum community need to unequivocally promote following all applicable laws. However, I think we often come off a little too harsh on people who honestly don't know any better, and maybe shouldn't even be expected to know better.

To those of us who have been around a while, we're pretty familiar with what's allowed and what isn't, why you shouldn't release captive fish, etc. I think maybe we have a hard time looking at things from the perspective of someone just getting started who hasn't heard any of this before. Probably most of us caught and temporarily kept snakes, turtles, toads, tadpoles, etc. as kids/teenagers without any consideration whatsoever of whether that's legal. It's reasonable to expect anglers to be familiar with fish and game laws, but I think many people collecting their first few small fish for an aquarium don't even realize that they're technically "fishing" and that those laws apply.

The point is that we definitely want people who just started keeping native fish and are excited about it to stick around long enough to learn how to do so responsibly. When someone first posts about a fish that they really shouldn't be keeping, I think it'd be a good idea to say some encouraging things ("yeah, that is a really neat fish") along with a fairly gentle nudge to check state laws. If folks are familiar with that state's laws, it would also be nice to suggest alternative fish that can be collected, or vendors where fish can legally be purchased. We also shouldn't necessarily expect someone to completely "get it" the first time it's said -- might take a few repetitions before it really sinks in.

That would surely be more effective. Even though I have guide books and try to id fish that I collect, I still make the occassional mistake. When I first started collecting I had no clue.
I have learned a lot since joining nanfa. If someone had come down on me the way that I have seen on some posts, I most likely would have thought "screw these guys" and been done with nanfa.

This pleases me greatly to see this issue brought up. I have really been enjoying the spirited yet civil debate unfolding in the other threads related to content and language on the forum. I have not contributed as I am not a paying member yet. To be honest, when I was considering being a member I didn't have the money. Then when I did have the extra money, I was rather disheartened by the way certain issues were being handled and what has come off as negative commentary from those who know versus those who don't know. I too am irritated by some of the nonsense people put on here but speaking from my own personal standpoint, this forum is run much differently than most are. Not knowing something you were never taught doesn't make you stupid. I like how content is managed on here but I do think with some careful considerations NANFA would be much more successful in reaching out and teaching people like myself who just want to learn. I can honestly say that if things do begin to shift towards a more friendly yet informative path in NANFA, not only will I become a paying member but also contribute what I can artistically to help better the organization. I would like to do a series of Native non-game fish paintings of my home state, Pennsylvania. I would like to sell the originals and prints of these and donate a good bit of proceeds to NANFA. I would be doing this in return for some thoughtful critique and hopes that this will do some good for the future of the wonderful creatures we hold dear and those who care to learn about them. I would also like to help with AC and public interaction on a local level as my experience grows. However, if things don't improve then I will have no desire to contribute my time and money.

I would also like to help with AC and public interaction on a local level as my experience grows. However, if things don't improve then I will have no desire to contribute my time and money.

What specifically would you like to see improved?

I would also like to hear what you think needs to be improved.

I joined NANFA in a different time with different technology. The world of the on-line forum which allows anyone to spout anything at any time can be a blessing and a curse. NANFA as a whole has a well-defined mission, with one of the primary goals being to educate the public on the wonder and perils of our native species. This forum has been an excellent conduit for this. It has also, unfortunately, been a platform where individuals can assert their personal views on various fishy related topics. Some of these views are readily accepted by the forum goers and some are not for various reasons. Tone is certainly one reason. Condescension another, though this really goes back to tone. The other reasons are simply differences in opinion when it comes to how best to conserve our fishes and still be able to enjoy them. If you are on this list, you are likely a naturalist/conservationist/researcher of our natives and you are even more likely to have very firmly held convictions. These firm beliefs can sometimes clash with others' beliefs even though the others may be just as correct.

I totally agree with the title of this topic. I think some of us have been harsh on the newer participants, especially given that there is no one here that hasn't taken a fish at one point or another without knowing precisely what is what, even those that are so critical now. While I agree that it is of the utmost importance to study up on the species you may come in contact with and never take a fish that you are not familiar with, not everyone is as well versed in the laws as they should be, especially kids. We need to foster their interest, not quash it. THey are the future of these fish and, frankly, they are going to need as much help as they can get in the coming years.

The admins of the forum do their absolute best to be patient and understanding in these areas. We have certain standards that we try to maintain and we wrestle regularly with what is acceptable and what is not. I just want everyon to understand this. Nothing is done in regards to policing the forum, at least by the admins, unless it is discussed and a concensus is reached. What I would like to ask for is that the forum participants, especially the NANFA members who have a mission statement to adhere to, to take a moment before posting and be sure that what you have to say is constructive and not harsh for the sake of being harsh. The forum is NANFA's largest and most productive education and member recruitment tool. We want the newcomers to be welsome so that they are in an environment that is condusive to learning. Without this, we are failing our mission and this is not acceptable.

Glad someone mentioned this. Most peopl, myself included, honestly don't know any better when they are just geting started. It's best not to turn people off of this hobbby.

To put it simply, I would like to see people treated a little nicer on here. I all too often see what could easily be perceived as condescending language used towards people who just don't know any better.

To put it simply, I would like to see people treated a little nicer on here. I all too often see what could easily be perceived as condescending language used towards people who just don't know any better.

I agree. What I hope you will understand is that there are going to be blunt people in all situations and they certainly do not represent NANFA as a whole. If you perceive issues, please send a note to an admin or mod and we will make an attempt to rectify the situation.

On another note, I appreciate your preliminary offer of help for the organization. Your art work is excellent and was certainly a highlight of the FL meeting.

I spend a lot of time reviewing my posts before I hit the "send" button, just to be sure they aren't likely to be misunderstood. [...] Not just to prevent hurting feelings, but because, after all, they are my comments and I want them to be understood the way I intended them. I don't always succeed, but I do go back and improve most of my posts after I read them using the "preview" button.

I usually do the same for anything more than one-line replies. In the few cases when I've been particularly worked up about something, I've even saved my posts in a text document and gone back later to see if I really wanted to post it. As Mikez pointed out somewhere else recently, there's almost nothing on here worth really getting angry about.

That's not to say that I haven't posted things that I wish I didn't at some points, but it helps.

Edited by jase, 11 March 2010 - 05:22 PM.

Other threads recently have gotten me thinking about how best to handle it when a new forum participant admits to collecting or keeping fish not permitted by state laws or not appropriate for an aquarium. Obviously, NANFA as a whole and the Forum community need to unequivocally promote following all applicable laws. However, I think we often come off a little too harsh on people who honestly don't know any better, and maybe shouldn't even be expected to know better.

To those of us who have been around a while, we're pretty familiar with what's allowed and what isn't, why you shouldn't release captive fish, etc. I think maybe we have a hard time looking at things from the perspective of someone just getting started who hasn't heard any of this before. Probably most of us caught and temporarily kept snakes, turtles, toads, tadpoles, etc. as kids/teenagers without any consideration whatsoever of whether that's legal. It's reasonable to expect anglers to be familiar with fish and game laws, but I think many people collecting their first few small fish for an aquarium don't even realize that they're technically "fishing" and that those laws apply.

The point is that we definitely want people who just started keeping native fish and are excited about it to stick around long enough to learn how to do so responsibly. When someone first posts about a fish that they really shouldn't be keeping, I think it'd be a good idea to say some encouraging things ("yeah, that is a really neat fish") along with a fairly gentle nudge to check state laws. If folks are familiar with that state's laws, it would also be nice to suggest alternative fish that can be collected, or vendors where fish can legally be purchased. We also shouldn't necessarily expect someone to completely "get it" the first time it's said -- might take a few repetitions before it really sinks in.

these few threads cover it all.
http://www.nanfa.org/mission.shtml

most of us start off the same way.
http://forum.nanfa.o...to-native-fish/

it has been a long winter.
and we have a thread for such laws for new guest/members to read.
http://forum.nanfa.o...-forms-permits/

Regarding the issue of keeping fish one shouldn't, it would probably also help to explain why what has happened is wrong, and not simply pointing out that it is illegal. There is still a significant minority of people who subscribe to the political philosophy of Ghandi and King that an unjust law is no law at all.

NANFA does a great job with that sticky of explaining the issue of captive release, but I'm still at a loss to explain the moral imperative behind, for example, my state's prohibition on keeping a game fish taken by dipnet that would be legal to keep if caught on hook and line.

Regarding the issue of keeping fish one shouldn't, it would probably also help to explain why what has happened is wrong, and not simply pointing out that it is illegal. There is still a significant minority of people who subscribe to the political philosophy of Ghandi and King that an unjust law is no law at all.

Ugh, that's a tough one. I can generally understand what considerations are going into various state laws and follow them, but that doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't expect I'm ever going to get over the fact that I can legally bring home a whole cooler of dead perch but not a single live one.

In many cases, "it's illegal, period" might be the best explanation you can offer -- and then suggest what steps might be taken to improve the laws.

Edited by jase, 11 March 2010 - 07:38 PM.

Regarding the issue of keeping fish one shouldn't, it would probably also help to explain why what has happened is wrong, and not simply pointing out that it is illegal. There is still a significant minority of people who subscribe to the political philosophy of Ghandi and King that an unjust law is no law at all.

NANFA does a great job with that sticky of explaining the issue of captive release, but I'm still at a loss to explain the moral imperative behind, for example, my state's prohibition on keeping a game fish taken by dipnet that would be legal to keep if caught on hook and line.

It really all depends if you feel morally bound to abide by the law. I can't and don't speak for NANFA but I feel comfortable enough to say on the behalf of my responsibilities to the forum itself and the membership, breaking the law does not help NANFA, the forum or the members themselves. It furthermore undermines the years of work NANFA has worked to establish a relationship of trust with the various state agencies. For these reasons among many others, illegal behavior cannot be tolerated here as it can undo a great deal in short order.

I agree. What I hope you will understand is that there are going to be blunt people in all situations and they certainly do not represent NANFA as a whole. If you perceive issues, please send a note to an admin or mod and we will make an attempt to rectify the situation.

On another note, I appreciate your preliminary offer of help for the organization. Your art work is excellent and was certainly a highlight of the FL meeting.

Thanks for the compliment Dustin!

As for reporting issues it's a difficult situation as it isn't a particular instance I could site but a general negative tone that sometimes is very pervasive.

I'm glad you enjoyed the flagfish painting. It was an absolute pleasure working with Casper on that project. He's a pretty cool dude.

It really all depends if you feel morally bound to abide by the law. I can't and don't speak for NANFA but I feel comfortable enough to say on the behalf of my responsibilities to the forum itself and the membership, breaking the law does not help NANFA, the forum or the members themselves. It furthermore undermines the years of work NANFA has worked to establish a relationship of trust with the various state agencies. For these reasons among many others, illegal behavior cannot be tolerated here as it can undo a great deal in short order.

I would like to reiterate the above and make it very clear as well that Illegal activity will not be tolerated nor promoted in any way on this site (http://forum.nanfa.org). There is Zero Grey area as far as collection or wildlife laws are concerned and there will be no thought put to what political philosophy you may have to whatever law. We do not interpret the laws and act as a supreme court to determine it's validity or not. We follow them as written, reference them as written and all things outside of as written is considered illegal activity. This is it and that is all.

I'm sure there can be better ways to phrase this problem but the problem it self is one that neither this forum nor its staff will take lightly. It is obviously in all of our interest to change some archaic, unreasonable or just plain stupid laws (r the language of them) but this is not done by shooting yourself in the head. There are issues which are great enough and important enough to do as Gandhi or King et al did and there was reason to fully oppose unjust laws with civil disobedience and open disregard.

Anything to do with a simple hobby of keeping some animals or invertebrates in a series of square siliconed pieces of glass is not this and there is no comparison...We must and need to work within the frame of Federal, state and local laws and work with the Lawmakers to adjust policy to our desired outcome by "intelligent tinkering" and active participation in wildlife law processes. As a stakeholder in the resource that we use we do have a voice. You however need to get off the internet and just complaining and go to the meetings and submit your position. If things do not work then try again later and keep trying but do so within the framework and always within legal boundaries.