Let's go easier on new members collecting/keeping fish they shouldn't be.

I would like to reiterate the above and make it very clear as well that Illegal activity will not be tolerated nor promoted in any way on this site (http://forum.nanfa.org). There is Zero Grey area as far as collection or wildlife laws are concerned and there will be no thought put to what political philosophy you may have to whatever law. We do not interpret the laws and act as a supreme court to determine it's validity or not. We follow them as written, reference them as written and all things outside of as written is considered illegal activity. This is it and that is all.

Richard, I don't think there's any lack of clarity on NANFA and the Forum's position here. If I understand gzeiger's post correctly, he's asking for help in explaining why those laws are as they are, not suggesting that they don't need to be followed if you don't agree. I don't think anyone is actually claiming that civil disobedience is warranted here. The rationale behind many state fish and game laws isn't always clear, and it's to be expected that newer members may question them. Helping people to not only understand the laws as written but also why those laws are necessary can only improve compliance.

At the same time, I think there's a lot of latitude in how to reply when a new participant mentions something that's not completely within fish and game laws. Yes, it's important to let the person know of their mistake and the need to follow the law as written, but we don't have to act like we've all known better all along and they're the only person who has ever done such a thing. If an excited new participant gets a reply like the above as their first response from the forum, chances are pretty good that they're not going to stick around long enough to get educated. (I know you're writing that as a statement of NANFA/board policy, not how we ought to respond to new members -- but it's a good example of what an over-the-top response might look like.)

Richard, I don't think there's any lack of clarity on NANFA and the Forum's position here. If I understand gzeiger's post correctly, he's asking for help in explaining why those laws are as they are, not suggesting that they don't need to be followed if you don't agree. I don't think anyone is actually claiming that civil disobedience is warranted here. The rationale behind many state fish and game laws isn't always clear, and it's to be expected that newer members may question them. Helping people to not only understand the laws as written but also why those laws are necessary can only improve compliance.

At the same time, I think there's a lot of latitude in how to reply when a new participant mentions something that's not completely within fish and game laws. Yes, it's important to let the person know of their mistake and the need to follow the law as written, but we don't have to act like we've all known better all along and they're the only person who has ever done such a thing. If an excited new participant gets a reply like the above as their first response from the forum, chances are pretty good that they're not going to stick around long enough to get educated. (I know you're writing that as a statement of NANFA/board policy, not how we ought to respond to new members -- but it's a good example of what an over-the-top response might look like.)

My statement is 100% what board policy is and has been. if my statements are over the top or not to you or anyone else is irrelevant. This is not open to discussion it is exactly as stated. For you to participate here you need to follow certain guidelines and this is a very core one. Please read what I wrote very carefully this is not as I said open to discussion of any kind. All aspects of this site are to be carried out in a legal manner, we will not allow discussion of illegal activity. We are not here to judge the laws. What We know of them we take them As Is and it is only the written law that will be dealt with. Anything outside of the written law is Illegal and can not be discussed on this site. I do not care if your feelings are hurt.... this is it... There is no discussion about this in it's core form. Feel free to discuss manners of which to tell people this message but in the end this is not as I have stated a grey area. The policy will remain unchamged to eliminate any topic that deals with Illegal actions and Members that post such material can also be restricted or removed from this forum. We will not tolerate any form of Illegal activity. Granted the individual that does it once will be given some leeway and if the individual is to do so more than once they will be banned permanently or sanctioned in other ways..

That is all...This policy should be very well understood..

Richard,
I don't think Jase intended to imply that we allow discussion of illegally taken fish or other illegal activities by anyone. I think what he means is that it would be better explain that position in a friendly manner so it doesn't sound like they are getting yelled at. We could say things like "You may not have known, but it was against the regulations for you to take that fish. Unfortunately, that means we can not discuss this fish at all on the forum". or something to that effect.

Thanks for the compliment Dustin!

As for reporting issues it's a difficult situation as it isn't a particular instance I could site but a general negative tone that sometimes is very pervasive.

I'm glad you enjoyed the flagfish painting. It was an absolute pleasure working with Casper on that project. He's a pretty cool dude.

I will second what Dustin said...Thanks for the outstanding artwork. Really impressive stuff!

I will also agree that members should either report when they feel the tone gets out of control or feel free to PM me (or another mod they prefer to deal with).

I think much of what is perceived as negative tone can be attributed to a couple of things:
Breaking the law/sliding ethics--As covered already, when forum members break the law it reflects poorly on NANFA as an organization, the forum and the individual. This tends to get the membership stirred since it's very clear that forum members are expected to abide by the NANFA code of ethics. I'd think it's reasonable to expect forum participants to abide by the code of ethics on the forum that made it possible to communicate. If folks don't want to abide by the code of ethics, they might just get a blunt comment about their public behavior. I really don't see lots of name calling that could warrant bruised feelings.
Detail--This forum is detail oriented and that should be no surprise. It's one of the things that sets this forum apart from many other fishy places on the net. Questions and topics that lack detail often get blunt questions and responses as they tend not to actually contribute to the forum.

I'll agree there are times when I would prefer the tone change a bit but I'll also tell you that I don't want a forum with sliding ethics or lacking detail. Folks should toughen up a bit on criticism and take the time to read the stickies. I see far worse criticism on other forums (where many of the membership that's currently complaining came from) and wonder why all of the sudden post have come out of the woodwork over this issue:-k

I do not see why every one is getting their panties in a bunch. Ignorance is no exuse. The members who have posted informing others what they have done is illegal should quit whining that people are being rude or insensitive, and consider themselves lucky. If they had been approached by a DNR officer and they had said " I didn't know that was an endagered fish", do you really think they will be as kind as a simple slap on the wrist. Or better yet try driving 40-50 mph in a school zone and when the cop pulls you over, teel him you didnt know and see how far that gets you. Yes I understand we all make mistakes but this is the real world people. When you are breaking the law and announce it on the forum wheter you knew it was wrong or illegal or whatever, be happy all your getting is a tounge lashing and nothing worse. Just my two cents!

While that may be true to a certain extent, I personally feel NANFA would be much better served not slamming doors in the faces of people with a budding interest for native fishes. I would think it is in NANFA's best interest to have a growing membership that respects the rules and requests of the forum but also feels comfortable posting questions and so forth.

[quote name='bart' date='13 March 2010 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1268489535' post='73691']
While that may be true to a certain extent, I personally feel NANFA would be much better served not slamming doors in the faces of people with a budding interest for native fishes. I would think it is in NANFA's best interest to have a growing membership that respects the rules and requests of the forum but also feels comfortable posting questions and so forth.


I agree, being rude to someone whos helping to support the organization in one way or another will only bring negative publicity, especially if theyre new and dont know any better.

[quote name='wargreen' date='13 March 2010 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1268541081' post='73736']
[quote name='bart' date='13 March 2010 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1268489535' post='73691']
While that may be true to a certain extent, I personally feel NANFA would be much better served not slamming doors in the faces of people with a budding interest for native fishes. I would think it is in NANFA's best interest to have a growing membership that respects the rules and requests of the forum but also feels comfortable posting questions and so forth.


I agree, being rude to someone whos helping to support the organization in one way or another will only bring negative publicity, especially if theyre new and dont know any better.
[/quote]

Here is the problem, we will also not allow it. Knowing better or not is irrelevant. I'm going to say this again.. There is no grey area here. You do need to know your state and local laws. You should not be involved with this type of thing if you are not. You need to understand your Federal, state and local laws for your respective area. If you need specific licenses get them, If you need permits get them. Illegal activity does not help any of us. Can some of us be better at how we going about explaining this.. well sure we could.. But the matter is still very clear as far as this forum goes. Illegal activity will not be tolerated or discussed. Sorry if you have Illegally obtained or possessed fish..

You're not allowed to use this site to help you keep illegal animals and we will not support you in doing so. This is the end position that needs to be reiterated and understood. There is no room for any discussion as far as this goes. Illegal activity will be dealt with harshly on here and there will be no sliding scale used based on your beginner / uninformed status or not.

Here is the problem, we will also not allow it. Knowing better or not is irrelevant. I'm going to say this again.. There is no grey area here. You do need to know your state and local laws. You should not be involved with this type of thing if you are not. You need to understand your Federal, state and local laws for your respective area. If you need specific licenses get them, If you need permits get them. Illegal activity does not help any of us. Can some of us be better at how we going about explaining this.. well sure we could.. But the matter is still very clear as far as this forum goes. Illegal activity will not be tolerated or discussed. Sorry if you have Illegally obtained or possessed fish..

You're not allowed to use this site to help you keep illegal animals and we will not support you in doing so. This is the end position that needs to be reiterated and understood. There is no room for any discussion as far as this goes. Illegal activity will be dealt with harshly on here and there will be no sliding scale used based on your beginner / uninformed status or not.

bold:no one is going for that...it simply is not the point. I think someone else has posted this before...

When someone makes a first post and it becomes evident they have done something illegal, why don't you just call the authorities on them if you want to deal harsh and strictly? Just typing out a stiff lecture is not enough.

The way I see it, either ACTUALLY be harsh and get the law involved, or help inform people and be welcoming. No one who posts a critical response has any actual power and can't defend their actions unless they go the full mile and get the poster punished. Obviously a warning, but a little acceptance of PEOPLE (not illegal actions) would put NANFA in a good light, especially to new forum members. So yeah, take them down or help them out, but don't just wag a finger.

I have been watching this thread with great interest. It has too much piss and vinegar. There needs to be a carrot with the stick that is already applied with so much pepper on it.

Many leaders of this forum were formally trained in respect to taxonomy. They also have had more or less continuous contact with rules and regulations regarding take of organisms belonging to public domain. The general public has not been so blessed.

Rules have changed greatly in respect to take of wild organisms with restrictions becoming more restricted with time. This trend is likely to continue. Rules also vary state to state and sometimes on more local scales.
Exposure to rules regarding take of wild organisms is not like with continuously visible traffic signs or reinforced like moral codes from your parents. Rules for collecting must be actively sought out and read thoroughly. As with any activity, when we start, especially without trained supervision we may act in a manner that is not consistent with rules.

For those of us in the know, it is our social (sometimes professional as well) obligation to provide the “parental” guidance enabling the new people of this forum to understand legal boundaries in respect to take of wild organisms.

The effort of some on this forum comes in the form of publically administered written punishment. To me, these punishments have a lot in common with spankings where the spanker was obviously under the influence of strong emotion. The person being “spanked” is in many ways being blind-sided and likely to develop a strong, likely unproductive view of the spanker and organization (NANFA) the spanker represents.

The spankings NANFA administers should be brief with less emotion or negative tone (we suck at this), include explanation as to what the infraction was (we are very good), and followed up with information about where to get proper information regarding rules and regulations (we are highly variable on this). We do have links for each state regarding take of wild organisms for various states but IT DOES REQUIRE TIME TO ASSIMILATE the information. For many people, the assimilation process is rewarding in its self. We should also follow up with a more positively toned statement promoting continued interest in native North American Fishes. We need more people with interest. Some of these people will eventually have to be our replacements. If we do not, then new folks will likely leave with the taste of piss and vinegar on their tongue and our organization itself will be hurting the public’s interest in the systems we hold dear.

This thread is a great example of the kind of heavy-handed knee jerk reaction we're talking about. All I said was that when we point out that a new poster has done something illegal, we also need to explain what the problem is and where to find the information. The way we typically do react is almost certainly going to (and probably already has) result in some guy posting about an illegally netted bluegill leaving the forum and taking an endangered species. You don't have to condone anything, just explain what you want rather than merely demanding it.

Well, to some degree we do have to demand it since we're the ones hosting and responsible for such public discussion. No one thinks it exceptional that before you go hunting or fishing that you learn and understand the laws regulating such take (and it is take...). More experienced members on this Forum have and will point out possible problems with what others are doing. Some of us get testy about it sometimes because we see it over and over which can wear thin, even if it shouldn't. And the truth is that enforcement people from various federal and state agencies visit this board anonymously too, which leads back to those listed as moderators, and NANFA itself, not wanting to routinely host ill-informed discussions about taking and keeping various species since it makes us look like schmuckaroos in a purely legal sense.

We have to assume that you think about what you're doing before you do it, not a popular concept in modern society.

ame='wargreen' date='13 March 2010 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1268541081' post='73736']


Here is the problem, we will also not allow it. Knowing better or not is irrelevant. I'm going to say this again.. There is no grey area here. You do need to know your state and local laws. You should not be involved with this type of thing if you are not. You need to understand your Federal, state and local laws for your respective area. If you need specific licenses get them, If you need permits get them. Illegal activity does not help any of us. Can some of us be better at how we going about explaining this.. well sure we could.. But the matter is still very clear as far as this forum goes. Illegal activity will not be tolerated or discussed. Sorry if you have Illegally obtained or possessed fish..

You're not allowed to use this site to help you keep illegal animals and we will not support you in doing so. This is the end position that needs to be reiterated and understood. There is no room for any discussion as far as this goes. Illegal activity will be dealt with harshly on here and there will be no sliding scale used based on your beginner / uninformed status or not.

This is the rude tone I have been talking about ! Once again I will repeat for those who are misunderstanding what I have been saying all along (I'll use smileys to help). I do not condone people who are doing illegal things against state and Federal laws (and never have) like collecting endangered fish, letting loose exotics, or like I've read in posts before, letting dangerous exotics go after catching them (snakeheads,non-native cichlids and carps do not need to be and should NOT be rereleased into our enviroment ) and any one who does should be told its illegal and why its illegal. I do not think WE (I am a paying member and supporter) need to be rude and threatening to anyone, unless you are intentionally trying to get people to leave NANFA and keep people from joining . Many people watch these posts before joining. I am telling you that most people do not like a harsh response when they are doing something they may have been doing since childhood and some might have been raised doing this; I feel we should inform and educate (our mission statement and the reason I joined and became a paying member) and not attack and drive away; I believe the mission statement is a good one and its veeeeeeery important to educate the public on these posts on responsible fishkeeping and the local laws without coming across as rude or snobby. There is so much that is not known about natives (Ive been doing alot of research on the internet much to my wifes dismay), even on fish like Pumpkinseeds and Longears even though theyve been in aquariums as pets for decades. One of these new members maybe the one who has the time and money to do some interesting research in the future.....if we dont drive them away . Thanks Joe.

Edited by wargreen, 14 March 2010 - 01:32 PM.

Let me ask a stupid question; is Richard's (brooklamprey) last post really "rude"? It's a statement of fact rather than belittling to a specific person or persons. I'm not trying to be a lawyer about this, I just don't see the big deal. We'll help you to figure it out before you run off to collect your own population of Barrens topminnows, or whatever, but we will be apprehensive and nudgy if you post about it after the fact. It's really very simple that way.....

That post may have been appropriate in part if it had been on topic, but "will not be discussed" and "no room for discussion" are not appropriate comments in this context. The question at hand was whether, when a new poster reveals that he has done something illegal, the response should explain what the right thing to do is and why, or simply close the post with a snippy "illegal activity may not be discussed." I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Nobody is going to think the forum is unprofessional because we explain why we say what we do.

The post did come off as rude because it doesn't seem like he even read the thread.

Edited by gzeiger, 14 March 2010 - 02:59 PM.

If I understand the mandate of law enforcement correctly, law enforcement officials like to prevent the breaking of laws,espcially repeatedly, rather than stick everyone they can with a fine.

They already spend considerable resources educating the public on laws that are much more consistent and stable than those relavent to take of protected species. Advertisements regarding seat belts, speeding and operating vehicles while under the influence are easy to find. In some ways NANFA has the ability to facilitate educating the public it serves within a context that law enforcemnt may not have the resources for.

In some ways we may be coming across more like mall cops with an attitude, than as actual parties trying to do the right thing.

I think we all agree that none of us condones illegal activity. The problem is perceived rudeness. Yes, we have to state, "That's illegal," but I think we can and should explain why it's against the law. If the person replying doesn't have time or the inclination to go into details, then a simple, "That's illegal. Please review your local laws. You can Google for them." is better than a blunt, "That's illegal, you should know that and we're not discussing it here." Yes, we should all know the law, but everyone screws up sometimes. Let's get to know people a little before we write them off. And "please" doesn't hurt, and shows that we're trying to be polite. That said, some people are too sensitive and will take offense whatever we say, but we can try.

Let me ask a stupid question; is Richard's (brooklamprey) last post really "rude"? It's a statement of fact rather than belittling to a specific person or persons. I'm not trying to be a lawyer about this, I just don't see the big deal. We'll help you to figure it out before you run off to collect your own population of Barrens topminnows, or whatever, but we will be apprehensive and nudgy if you post about it after the fact. It's really very simple that way.....

If we look at questions as opportunities to inform people I believe we will be more successfull in our mission statement (which I believe in). If somebody says theyve collected a endangered Niangua darter.....the first thing I would do is ask them if they knew that its against the law, and then if they still have questions I would explain why its against the law to them; if I found out they did it again I would call the Missouri department of conservation and report it. Where I live there (in the Ozarks there are people who still get half their meat from fishing and hunting)are a lot of people who follow local tradition instead of state and federal laws, a harsh response will only bring anger, resentment and even more illegal activity (often violence towards the person who was seen as rude to them). I once asked years ago a local ranger why he gives warnings about certain things instead of tickets and he explained he was trying to change a "culture" of poaching (through education) and there was not enough room in jails for everyone hes caught ever doing it the first time; he then told me he never gives 2 warnings to the same person. This ranger is well liked in his area and I am willing to bet has done alot towards educating the local towards proper conservation (I used to be a hardcore enviromentalist until talking to him....I have learned so much,and it has moderated my position alot). When I came back to the Ozarks after living in Northern California and attending college there, I was very confrontational with the locals (I now regret that approach and the trouble I got into because of it) as I thought I had all the answers. I now see you cant make somebody believe in something you can only convince them, which is one reason I joined NANFA; in the mission statement and one of its grants is language all about research and education. I feel using more questions and I statements and going on to educate people on the facts (like asking them if theyve looked at the laws governing fish collectin in their state) for first time offenders and new members would be the most beneficial route to take, instead of instantly becoming rude and threatening people. Where I work I have some co-workers from the hills who do all kinds of illegal things (because they were raised that way and see nothing wrong with it) and a guy from Belarus (where they have no limits on fish caught and use nets alot), and a guy whose reading ability is so bad hes pracitically illiterate (but one of the hardest workers youll ever meet); I take every opportunity to educate these people on good conservation and enviromentalism by hunting and fishing with them (when we have time) and by talking with them about natives and endangered species. All of the workers Ive talked to had no idea (and some of these are fisherman), that the Ozarks have many endemic species (the Ozark Bass we have is called "goggle-eye" just like Warmouths and Rock,Shadowbass, and Green sunfish: Ive seen madtoms called Bullheads etc.) If I was rude instead of planting mustard seeds I would just get beat up , fired and wouldnt be able to convince anyone of anything (just like when I was younger ). The point is many people need educated not demeaned; and I believe one of the purposes of this forum is supposed to be about education and bringing in new members to the fold (it is a part of Nanfa an the part people see the most). This is my last post on the subject. Thanks for hearing me out, Joe.

If I understand the mandate of law enforcement correctly, law enforcement officials like to prevent the breaking of laws, especially repeatedly, rather than stick everyone they can with a fine.

They already spend considerable resources educating the public on laws that are much more consistent and stable than those relevant to take of protected species. Advertisements regarding seat belts, speeding and operating vehicles while under the influence are easy to find. In some ways NANFA has the ability to facilitate educating the public it serves within a context that law enforcement may not have the resources for.

I want to agree with and emphasize this statement.

Perhaps this is just me, and perhaps this brings up the whole "Enlightenment: John Locke vs. Thomas Hobbes" debate about what can and should be expected out of human nature, but in my view part of being a member of a free society is the assumption that in the grand scheme of things, any action should be allowed unless specifically prohibited. This is where people falter, because this information is not always as readily available as information about other laws is. When this is applied to fishing or fish collecting, often people ARE ignorant of these laws. If Fish and Game departments brought in as much money as the DMV does, maybe they would be able to afford to advertise to PREVENT the breaking of the law like centrarchid mentions. However, these agencies are indeed operating on a much more limited budget. While any state fishing regulations manual will tell you "Threatened and Endangered species are not to be taken," they generally have neither the budget or the time to print pictures and descriptions of these species.

It is a nice thought though, isn't it? This, I believe, is where NANFA can step in (in a positive light!) by serving as a way to educate the public more about no-take species and the regulations regarding them. If I am reading the content of these posts correctly, we are debating whether to take a stern "Not Allowed" position rather than a "Well this is against the law because..." stance. WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE HERE! That, in the grand scheme of things, SHOULD be the most important priority for NANFA in an effort to aid conservation of these species, since education fosters love and regard for the environment.

I want to add a personal touch to this. When I first learned about NANFA, I was 18 and about to start working on my Bachelor's degree in Biology. Thanks to the friendly, caring attitude and nurturing learning environment this organization has created, I hold NANFA largely responsible for my ever-growing passion for fish and I owe it to NANFA that I have not only earned my BS in biology, but am headed into the field of fisheries science. What do I want to do with my life, in a nutshell? Contribute to knowledge of native freshwater fish and work towards their conservation.

NANFA did that! Seriously! You guys have created a lifelong fisheries professional here! This is the power you have!

But fellow fish lovers...wield that power carefully. I freely admit to having killed fish in my fish tanks. I admit that I have on occasion been ignorant of laws and done wrong. If I have received a tongue lashing about my wrongdoing when I started associating with NANFA, I honestly probably would have said "Screw these people!" and found something else to do with my life, rather than trying to save fish. But I was accepted by the group as a kid with a budding interest in native fish. I was gently corrected, educated, and encouraged. I really want to thank all of you who have associated with me and conversed with me about these issues. You guys did the right thing.

We need to be a "parent" to people inexperienced in our realm. We can educate and guide, and thus improve the next generation of fish nuts. But a parent that is always mean to their child is not a good parent. And that child will certainly not grow up an enthusiastic critical thinker. We need to be strict, certainly. But we do not have to be rude or mean to make it clear that we do not condone illegal activity. As the role of educator, if we are effective, state agencies may see us as a responsible partner, rather than a fringe organization. Partnership with state agencies would be great for us (Who else would be thrilled to see TN open collecting up to responsible fish collectors?), would be great for the state agencies themselves (whom would always be happy to receive a helping hand in educating the public or doing stream surveys, I'm sure!) and most importantly the fish, who would benefit from increased awareness by the public.

Do I sound like I am getting ahead of myself? Too forward thinking? I'm not. We need to consider issues such as this with any important decision this organization makes. We should take a progressive approach if we want to increase membership. We should reach out to government and offer to help the fish in any way we can. But most importantly (I stress this!) we need to reach out to our own members and potential members. Alienating prospective members hurts everyone. I want you all to think about that before you decide what your attitude is going to be when dealing with an unfortunate lawbreaker. More than likely, they meant well, otherwise they wouldn't be here trying to learn. They therefore don't deserve rudeness, shortness, snappiness, or the like. Let's be a good parent to the new generation of NANFAns.

Thank you for reading.

-Derek

Thanks Derek, that's some of the best writing to appear on the Forum, and not just because I like the idea of invoking Locke vs. Hobbes. For NANFA's ideals on education to work we have to be aware that we're in at least a two-way dialogue with everyone. All of us have to be very careful on the subject of legal collecting, but that's a central part of broad education.