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Georgia - Oconee River Drainage

Started by Michael Wolfe , Mar 13 2010 08:39 PM

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#21 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:57 AM

Beautiful! Gawd I love the Bling of Spring!

That would be the most etowanum-looking nigricans I've ever seen, if that's what you're implying by box-headed trout Michael (I love that term, I'm going to steal it!

) I'm also following Gerald's line of thinking, but I can't give you a good answer for the very reasons he mentions. If you held me at gun point, I'd be down the Moxostoma route.

Todd

#22 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 11:05 AM

Awesome photos! Wow, I have never seen a Turquoise like that 'boss hog'! Very nice write-up and stunning photos. I am glad to see you got your hands on the H. rubrifrons. I don't have the tank space or the time, but I really can't wait to set up a N. Oconee tank with some of our 'backyard' fishes. Let me know how they do in captivity.

Gerald, you're right. That is most likely Scartomyzon - this one is the brassy jumprock. It is so strange that these guys get fairly large, but I have encountered them in the tiniest of streams (including my backyard stream).

#23 Guest_Casper Cox_*

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 12:09 PM

Uncle Willie might be right about the Brassy Jumprock. Check your range maps. Does not quite look like a juvi Hogsucker, err Boxhead Trout to me. Nose is to smooth and rounded and lips not quite protruding.
Michael that is quite the story and love the pics. Note the translucence of the tourquise blue in the heads and lips. Radiant. You have spurred us all for the spring waters.
Good job to you and kkkKieth.

#24 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 March 2010 - 03:48 PM

OK, for those of you that have never hung out with Ed "Riverslick" Scott... yes, I did mean Hogsucker... I have seen 'em at that size before and the speckling looked right... I do agree that the lips looked a little small, but the whole fish was only a ocuple of inches, so...

Peterson's doesn't have Brassy Jumprock and my Fishes of the Middle Savannah River Basin only has one picture of what looks to be an adult, so I don't know what juvies would look like.

My HUC #3070101 Upper Oconee River listing includes:
Scatomyzon sp 1 (Brassy Jumprock)
S. rupiscartes (Striped Jumprock)
H. nigricans (Northern Hogsucker)
M. robustum (Robust Redhorse)
M. collapsum (V-Lip Redhorse)

As potential suspects... we thought hogsucker in the net based on color... and on a lack of familiarity with Scatomyzon...

I have a lot more pictures of this individual (nothing that shows lips, cause he was so small), so if you want a specific trait, let me know and we can try. The other piece of data that I can give is that the stream itself was high in organics, and algae in the water, so not as nice a stream as we were in earlier.

So let me know what y'all decide!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#25 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:08 AM

Michael, were you in the same stream as your earlier posts? It took me a while (and I am still studying) to learn the Scartomyzon vs. other Catostomids. Like Casper said, the most notable feature on a hogsucker, the lips will kind of protrude out past the rostrum. In Mox/Scart, they are much more subterminal. But as far as narrowing down juveniles past that, the shape of the lips are usually the best indicator.

#26 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:35 AM

In looking in my books, I'd have to agree it's Scatomyzon. Unfortunately, my mother misunderstood my order of preference at Christmas, and I got the Fishes of the Middle Savannah INSTEAD of Fritz's SC book, dang it. So I'm stuck waiting until July when my birthday rolls around. But I'm going to guess that book will solve the mystery. In any case, you've got a great juvenile pic there, regardless of what species!

I'm going to try and make something like your tank this week. Hopefully they have a somewhat thinner board so I can clip a glass plate in place behind the fish, because I think that's how this will work the best.

I forgot Ed called them that. I gotta start writing the "Ed-isms" down in my field notes lol.

Todd

#27 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:16 AM

Uncle,

No, the first stream was about a mile south of my house and is I think the headwaters of McNutt Creek... the unidentified fish came from just north of Statham in what I think is the beginning of Brea Creek.

Farmer,

The MSRB book is great, so you got a good one even if it was not what you intended. But I have Fritz's book and I am still confused. Mainly becasue I look too much at coloration... So help me out, what are we going to look at to get the best diagnosis... I have a ton of pics... some head shots and more body stuff... what should I be looking at? It seems hard to tell from such a juveile fish... I should ahve just kept him and fed him... but I don't need a two foot long fish!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#28 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:26 AM

Fritz's SC key gets me to brassy jumprock based on 11 dorsal rays, 15+ caud.ped. scales, head length/ predorsal to head length ratio about 2.5-2.8, and narrow dark lateral stripes. In NC they're usually in rivers or large creeks; in small creeks I only see them close to a larger stream (less than 1/2 mi).

Edited by gerald, 22 March 2010 - 10:32 AM.

#29 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:00 PM

Yeah, what Gerald said

And no, I wasn't wholly disappointed either, it's a great book. But I wanted Fritz' book above all!

On fishes like this, at this age, your best bet is to do exactly what you/Gerald did. Get a ton of pictures, blow them up on your computer or tv and start counting. You'll see way more in megapixels than you saw while there. I always find crap I didn't notice when I get home, esp with the film and macro shots of flowers. It's kinda like 2 trips for the price of one!

Todd

#30 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:22 PM

That's why I love hanging out with you experts... now I have something to do this evening... I can hear my wife now... "What ARE you doing!"... me sitting on the floor beside my laptop computer, digital photos blown up so that you cand see anything but one big fish tail, with my shoes and socks off... "counting caudal peduncle scales"...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#31 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:26 PM

You gotta have that one moment where they just stop bothering to ask

#32 Guest_fritz_*

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 02:16 PM

I agree that it's a brassy jumprock. Short rounded snout and the light stripes are broader than the dark stripes.

I have never seen a male turquoise that fired up. Absolutely stunning!

#33 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 07:25 PM

Uncle,
No, the first stream was about a mile south of my house and is I think the headwaters of McNutt Creek... the unidentified fish came from just north of Statham in what I think is the beginning of Brea Creek.

I gotcha. Just wondering. I have encountered a few of these odd suckers in a small creek behind my folks' house (which drains into the Middle Oconee only 1/2 mile away). I then started trying to hone my sucker ID skills especially since I start my field sampling (for robust redhorse) in the Ocmulgee in the next week or two. I'll try to take pics for the forum of any of the suckers we encounter (hopefully robust, v-lip, spotteds suckers, and brassy and striped jumprock) for comparisons.

I still can't get over that turquoise darter-stunning. I need to see one in that condition for myself!

#34 Guest_IsaacSzabo_*

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 08:18 PM

Those are some great pictures of an awesome fish, Michael. I like the blue lines on the top and bottom of the caudal fin.

#35 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:46 PM

Those are some great pictures of an awesome fish, Michael. I like the blue lines on the top and bottom of the caudal fin.

High praise considering the excellent photos you hsve shown us all recently... thanks... and you show your artist's eye... I had not noticed that on the fish I had seen before, but noticed it when I got this guy in the photo tank this year... and now I see that it is a distinctive trait on all the fired up males. It is an interesting detail, not exactly subtle considering the bright color, but interesting that it appears on the bottom snd the top since it is the only turquoise on the top side of the fish.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#36 Guest_mzokan_*

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 01:54 PM

Wow! I've never caught a Turquoise darter that looked like that, -- great photos! By coincidence I just caught my first striped jumprock also just a few weeks back. I had the same initial impression as you that it was a hogsucker. The things that made me decide otherwise were the striping, the thicker peduncle, and the more overhanging snout.

By the way, I am also in the Athens area and would love to pull a seine sometime, usually grad school gets in the way though

Here's a small local boxhead for comparison from Sandy Creek

High praise considering the excellent photos you hsve shown us all recently... thanks... and you show your artist's eye... I had not noticed that on the fish I had seen before, but noticed it when I got this guy in the photo tank this year... and now I see that it is a distinctive trait on all the fired up males. It is an interesting detail, not exactly subtle considering the bright color, but interesting that it appears on the bottom snd the top since it is the only turquoise on the top side of the fish.

#37 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 12:18 PM

I just got in late last night from some Catostomid sampling on the Ocmulgee (parallel to the Oconee). I am super busy with projects and exams, but I will try to post some pics soon of the jumprocks I came across when I return home. While both striped and brassy are supposedly present, I only came across one species that I have been calling striped jumprocks - even though they are exhibiting very little stripes and have brassy coloration (nearly copper). I could be mistaken as it is the first time I've had them live in-hand. But it is my understanding that brassy jumprocks have much more visible stripes, while striped jumprocks are less striped and are very brassy in color. Correct me if I'm wrong - I will try to post pics soon for confirmation in the ID Assistance section.

Edited by UncleWillie, 26 April 2010 - 12:19 PM.