Your Best Guess

The solid margin on the opercular flap is what puzzles me the most. You guys speculated about hybrids--let me ask: are there any redbreast sunfish in the area? The fish you posted doesn't look like a redbreast, but the solid opercular flap is more characteristic of the redbreasts I've seen than of longears or dollars.

Like I mentioned these fish were all up and down the ditch we were fishing in. I do not believe they are stunted longears by the longest stretch. Like I said I catch central long ears a lot here in Tennessee and the ones I catch this size look nothing like this. And again the habitat is prime habitat for Dollar Sunfish and terrible habitat for Long Ear Sunfish. There were some that had slightly longer ear flaps but not very much longer. But I can say this that some had flecks in the ear flap and some did not. And the hump head I believe, as another person here said, is indicitave of a mature adult sunfish thus at this size would be a dollar sunfish. I have most all doubt removed from my head now that these are nothing but Western Dollar Sunfish. But to answer your question I really was not paying that much attention to the heads of all the fish so I really cannot give you a definative answer if there were more fish with this type of head. What I did notice when pulling them out of the water is that they were much more disk shaped than the young central long ears I catch here in Tennessee so that is another reason I think they are Western Dollars. All the dollar sunfish adults I have seen seem to me anyway to be more disk shaped.

I have asked my brother to go fishing there and he agreed since it is only about twenty minutes from his house. He will photograph a large variety of them both drab (possible females) and very colorful (possible males) so hopefully shortly we will have a large amount of photos to compare. I will make certain he takes many many. I will create an album in the album section for photos for all to examine. I think I may have an album already in there but I am not sure. So you can look forward to seeing more photos of these beautiful little fish. I will ask him to use a ruler or some standard so we will know the sizes of them.

And Brian I am thinking of you for these photos as well. I hope they help you in your studies of Lepomis Species and the reason for the color difference in different parts of the country. So look forward to a large variety of photos from that spot in Lafayette.

I will ask him to photograph the green sunfish and warmouths as well. I am talking green sunfish under two inches or so, that were so so colorful. I love those little green sunfish.

Daniel
Daniel

The solid margin on the opercular flap is what puzzles me the most. You guys speculated about hybrids--let me ask: are there any redbreast sunfish in the area? The fish you posted doesn't look like a redbreast, but the solid opercular flap is more characteristic of the redbreasts I've seen than of longears or dollars.

Bob,

What species do you suspect would mix with redbreasted sunfish to give this result? Green?

Edited by centrarchid, 07 September 2008 - 08:08 AM.

The solid margin on the opercular flap is what puzzles me the most. You guys speculated about hybrids--let me ask: are there any redbreast sunfish in the area? The fish you posted doesn't look like a redbreast, but the solid opercular flap is more characteristic of the redbreasts I've seen than of longears or dollars.

I do catch redbreasts down there. I did not catch any redbreast where I caught that fish of the original post that started this thread. The fish in my hand is definatly not a redbreast. But i must say as I have said before that the small long ears I catch down in Lafayette and surounding areas always throw me off down there. They seem different and I am always second guessing what they are when I catch them. I go back and forth from dollar to longear. But I do believe them to be long ears but possibly a different subspecies or strain as some others have mentioned. This fish (in hand) I believe is a long ear but somewhat different than the long ears I catch up here in TN. But the fish you see in my hand was caught in a large lake (Lake Martin). And also there is another lake north of Opelouses (??spelling) Louisiana. I also catch these type of long ears in small tributaries but they look exactly like the fish here in my hand. Beautiful little things. My brother has caught much larger long ears in the same lake that I caught the one in my hand. But the earflap is totaly long ear style. Long and black with no markings around it. I really think there are three maybe four different fish we are dealing with down there but again I could be wrong on all of them. Brian Zimmerman told me via email that he thinks that the fish I sent him are longears. So my bubble got burst. But my curiosity stays in tact. I await photos from my brother. Wished I could turn around and go right back down there but that cannot happen for me right now.

And yes the solid margin around the ear flap is what raises my attention when I catch one of those down there. I wished someone that was in the field of Icthyology was living right there and could do an extensive study of these fish for I really think we are dealing with some subspecies of either dollars or longears or both down there. And like you said maybe redbreast as well. But when fishing the ones I catch that have extensive red underneath is all on the back or tail end of the fish and redbreast as you all know is on the front side. Kind of a no brian-er I suppose since they are called redbreast sunfish.

Thanks again for you efforts,
I am really looking forward to some photos. Brian said he would place some photos of the ones I sent him on this forum. And also I will post photos via an album in my username when I recieve them from my brother. I was catching some in that ditch that did seem to be different. Some slightly larger with different earflaps and some much smaller and very colorful with short upward slanted earflaps.

May I add if anyone is interested and has google earth installed on their computer I can send you place marks and what fish I have caught where and descriptions of the habitat. That is if anyone is interested I do not mind doing this. Better going through e-mail with this if you are interested. Just PM me your email address then I can send you the locations and describe to the best of my ability the type of habitat where each place mark is and the fish I catch there.

Regards,
Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 07 September 2008 - 10:24 AM.

Lentic means no or very little stream like flow, as in a lake. The area known as the "Mississippi Embayment" used to be a part of the Gulf of Mexico at one time in the past extended up to southern Illinois and southeastern Missouri. It has silted in but still carries the Mississippi river and its flood plain whin in many areas is wider than 100 miles. This area is now the cotton, soybean and channel catfish producing region of the south that until the Army Corp got involved was very swamp like with many oxbows. The floods like in the historical record seldom are realized because of the extensive levee systems in place. The oxbows and the associated lowland, low gradient streams have low flow velocities and typically are heavily vegetated or at least have such patches.

I think if the Gel jockies get a look at these fish, they will say the odd looking fish I have and what I think you have are more closely related to the longear group than the dollars. I will even bet they are more closely associated with the northern longear than upland central longear most are familiar with. The later is more similar excepting color intensity, espcially when considering habitat types. I agree, your fish are more disk shaped than fish you may captured in Tennessee but have you ever caught any from Reelfoot Lake and compered those to the central longear of the clear rocky upland streams? I think you will see the two forms of longear can be found close together yet are very different.

Sorry for sloppy writing. I am running back and forth taking care of a bluegill breeding colony gone wild.

Thanks for the clarification. I have not fished in reelfoot lake. I live on the east side, as you know, in Tennessee and Reelfoot would be a good stretch for me just to go fishing. But I am totaly with you on your description of the long ears I catch in Louisiana. Some seem to be the distinct species like the one in my hand with the white border around the earflap. Some seem to be the typical long ear type with the "long ear" and no border. I have some photos that my brother sent me when he was fishing in Lake Martin. Which is part of a slow moving water system I believe. They have an outlet in the form of a culvert stood straight up as in the type they use when a man made dam is created. But this is a totaly natural lake as far as I know. It actually has two control points in it when the weather brings heavy rain.

Maybe I will start that album now and label the fish as to what body of water I caught them from.

Has anyone thought of the idea of O spots hybridizing with long ears. The ear flap of the fish in my hand looks almost like that of a O spot sunfish. I have caught them in that area. Just a thought.

Kind Regards,
Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 07 September 2008 - 10:42 AM.

OK now I am all excited. I will post photos of fish from my brother that he sent me last year. In them you will see the larger long ear for sure fish and then some smaller ones that I think are the fish that look like small long ears with that earflap with the white border. Also the fish I caught in that ditch which Brian now has are totaly different than either of the fish that my brother has sent me photos of. On my next trip down there you can be sure I will own a photo tank and I will bring my camera along.

You will find fish in my album shortly. I will create one. I know for sure my brother sent me a photo of a O-spot he caught in the same lake but I cannot find it for now. I may call him to see if he still has it. In one spot along the Levee system that creates what they call the spillway for the Mississippi so they do not have a repeat flood of the type when my Mother was growing up I have caught many many O-Spots.

Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 07 September 2008 - 11:00 AM.

smbass,

Based on your photographs, that is definantly the guy I am talkiing about!!!

These poor beat up fish. If you could have seen them when I first pulled them from the water. These pale by far in comparison. I registered to create a photo album but it seems there is some kind of processing period. Meaning I have to wait a while Grrrr. Any way when it is up and running I will create an album of the fish my brother caught last year and I will also put in that album a flier he caught and some warmouths. He caught some blue gill but I will refrain from putting those in becuase it matters not where you catch a blue gill they are all ugly IMHO. And if he can find that photo of the O-Spot he caught I will include that one as well. And about me talking of disk shaped fish it would be hard to believe me by these photos. I kept some of the larger ones. I hope to recieve those photos soon from my brother. There were some small ones we caught that were very round in appearance. Maybe they are more round when young. I know the redspotted I catch down there that are 1.5 to 2.5 inches are very very disk shaped.

Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 07 September 2008 - 11:26 AM.

I'm absolutely stumped. If it's a hybrid, maybe it's not a 1-1. If I had to guess--the redbreast might be back in the ancestry, 3 or 4 generations or so.

Alternately, maybe a dollar X redbreast cross. Again, I don't know. I'm only guessing, but I've never seen a longear or a dollar without that white margin on the opercular flap.

Bob,

What species do you suspect would mix with redbreasted sunfish to give this result? Green?

There are definately populations of longears without a margin. Actually I think most longears of more south western populations do not have any sort of a margin just a solid black flap. The margin is rather typical though in fish in the Northern part of their range. All of the longears here in Ohio have a rather distinct margin of white or in the northern part of the state white with a red tip.

I have uploaded the photos to the members gallery section on this site that I have been talking about from my Brother ( the photos from my Brother ). As you can see in even the larger ones they have an earflap that is no where near as long as a "regular long ear" and the ear flaps on even the large ones still have the white border. Now you have more photos to look at, let me know your verdict and it is my guess that these long ears are the ones that one of the members here are calling the Oxbow Longears. Definatly a species like none I have seen in Tennessee or the northern long ears that I aquired at one time and no longer have. Notice the ear flaps seem round where as the ones of the normal strain of long ears here in Tennessee are longer and more narrow with no white border.

I catch longears here in Tennessee that the ear flap is much longer, thinner by a little, and without the white border.
All these fish were caught in Lake Martin. The large lake I have been describing here in this thread.

I have communicated with my Brother in Lafayette LA and I will be posting the fish only from that ditch that I caught the four fish that Brian has posted and studied here in this thread. So I should have a fair group of photos of that one type of long ear fish if indeed that is what it is. What we may find and what I am possibly expecting are two types of sunfish one being the dollar sunfish (hopefully) and then the mystery long ear that some are calling the Oxbow Long Ear sunfish. Looking forward very much in recieving the photos next Sunday.

If anyone would like a the full resolution photo of any of these fish in my gallery let me know. They blow up better so you can count scales and such. He is shooting with a 3.2 mp camera only though, so the res is not that great to start out with. I do not even know if the ones that I have are the full 3.2 megs but I will send you what I have if you are interested in blowing them up for counting purposes.

Kind Regards,
Daniel AKA / Nativecajun

Edited by nativecajun, 07 September 2008 - 05:29 PM.

just to make it easier to see the pics... http://gallery.nanfa...rs/nativecajun/ those are some nice looking fish, and now I have no doubts they are a form of longear. I like the Flier too, nice catch.

Brian thanks for adding the link here. These fish in my album here look nothing like the ones I was catching in that ditch. Well maybe a little but they are larger coming from the lake,and the ones from the ditch definetly had much more intense coloration. I just do not think they look the same. All I know is now I am going to become a fish studier instead of just a fish collector. When I go down there I will take notes on this fish. I will sample from many different areas and photograph and take notes on them. I will forget about any other fish next time I go down, (well maybe)! This will be my focus I gurantee. Longear, Oxbow longear, Dollar sunfish, I will search out all the above named fish and have camera and photo tank in hand. And note pad to record where each fish came from and habitat. Maybe my GPS would come in handy, then the people that mentioned that they might want to go down there for collection and study purposes would have the Coordinates for each site. I wished I knew a way to transfer the cords. from my GPS to google earth to create place marks to pass along to people. If anyone knows how I would appreciate some detailed tips. I have tried but the cords that come up in google earth are longer or something. Well if anyone knows anything about how to do this I would appreciate a lesson. GPS in the field would definatly come in handy. Exact spots could then be given. I suppose I could just email the cords off of the GPS to the ones interested. Better yet if any of you that mentioned that you were interested in going down there I would be happy to make time and go with you. I know the area very well. My Dad and I used to crawfish all over the swamps down there and I bird watch, and fish collect every time I am down there. I have come acustomed to where you can catch which fish. It is a great place let me tell you. So many fish down there that are subtropical in my opinion. The list to long for me to remember and put here. Lets just say there is a great variety of fish ranging in size from 1.75 inches to as big as you want. There is a channel cut on the other side of the road from Lake Martin. There are gars in there. I was watching them feed in there and one turned in the waters surface and I can say that I think if I had this fish in my hands, "which would be impossible" my two hands would more than likely not go around the spot just above the tail, he was that large. Probably an aligator gar. There are Bowfin comming out the wazu down there as well. Golden topminnows, some type of starhead, not sure which one, least killie or Pygmy Livebearer if they renamed it, bantams, banded pygmies, fliers, O spots, sailfin mollies, beautiful warmouths with lots of purple on them, And here in Tennessee I can hardly ever catch a warmouth under five or six inches. Down there with rod and reel I catch them as small as you can imagine. One and a half inches in some cases. I use a dry fly streamer hook. I forget the size but they are slightly smaller than a number ten aberdeen hook. So I catch fish that are tiny and they being so so small they are usually not hooked very deep at all. Usually just barely hooked and no damage to the fish at all.

Another thought about study-ing these fish in the Lepomis family I want to learn how to count all the stuff you guys were mentioning here in this thread. If someone could condense a lesson for me and send it to me via PM or e-mail that would be great. I had told myself I would never go out to study fish but now that this has taken place I think I am converted. I am definetly interested in study now. So all tips will be appreciated. Or if you know some good articles via the net that would be good also. Books I suppose would help but they cost money and that is usually in short supply for me. The good thing is though is that I am on disability and I make my own schedual. I do work some but after three back surgeries and other problems I will not discuss here, even fishing with rod and reel is a challenge for me. Something about standing up in one spot, and maybe the uneven ground it matters not how much of my meds I take for the pain in my back, it still becomes unbearably painfull.

This is a bummer because fishing is the one thing that was ingrained in me since I can remember. As far as my memory can take me I remember fishing, hunting, frog giging, turtle catching, and across the street where I was born and raised there is a large ditch which they call a coolie. If this is really a technical term for a small ditch or stream would someone let me know. You never here anyone call a small ditch a "creek or stream". They are coolies, and bayous, (bayou = "Bi-you") is the pronunciation they use. Coolie I am not sure is a correct name for any small body or water or not. Please let me know, someone, if you are familiar with this term "Collie" pronounced / Cool-E

Well as usuall I am very long winded. To much time on my hands I suppose. But I hope this is helping someone and it is my desire now to study fish instead of just catching and keeping them for the tank or shipping. I really do not like shipping fish but I do it for one person only and that is it, and I think you know who that is. Stresses me a bit so no requests please.
Well I suppose for a hundred bucks a fish I would give it a thought but that would be illeagle so that would be out of the question for me.

Kind Regards,
Daniel

just to make it easier to see the pics... http://gallery.nanfa...rs/nativecajun/ those are some nice looking fish, and now I have no doubts they are a form of longear. I like the Flier too, nice catch.

Edited by nativecajun, 08 September 2008 - 11:34 AM.

Thanks, Brian. That's something I didn't know. Before your post, I looked up the description in the Peterson's guide, and didn't see the margin mentioned, although the illustration showed a margin.

There are definately populations of longears without a margin. Actually I think most longears of more south western populations do not have any sort of a margin just a solid black flap. The margin is rather typical though in fish in the Northern part of their range. All of the longears here in Ohio have a rather distinct margin of white or in the northern part of the state white with a red tip.

Daniel,

Every now and then you can pick up a used copy of Hubbs and Lagler's Icthyology book cheap online. I'm sure other more recent used texts are available online also. You might be able to google an icthyology lesson plan describing how you to count certain features, measure things, etc. For the most part, the front of any Fishes of _____ book has this information. We used to have some of copies of that section in Fishes of VA around the office for training and outreach so if I can find one I will let you know.

Fishes of the Great Lakes has been published as a new edition. It is in press, and easy to order from online stores, etc.

Here is a Long Ear I caught/catch here in Chattannoga Tennessee and surounding areas. I was under the impression that regular central long ears did not have the white border around the ear flap. So I suppose it is the other way around. If it does not have the border it is considered odd am I right?

And thanks for the tips on the books guys. Will look into getting one of them.

Regards,
Daniel

Edited by nativecajun, 09 September 2008 - 06:20 PM.

Wow, Daniel--that fish is nicer than my avatar!

Here is a Long Ear I caught/catch here in Chattannoga Tennessee and surounding areas. I was under the impression that regular central long ears did not have the white border around the ear flap. So I suppose it is the other way around. If it does not have the border it is considered odd am I right?

And thanks for the tips on the books guys. Will look into getting one of them.

Regards,
Daniel

Wow, Daniel--that fish is nicer than my avatar!

Man I have to dissagree with you. I think your Avatar is much more colorful. Would you mind sending me a full res. copy of that fish you use for your avatar. That would be great. It looks awesome.

Daniel