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Okefenokee Sunfish tank

Started by Guest_Fatman_* , Jul 10 2010 05:28 PM

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#1 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 05:28 PM

I am hoping to start up an Okefenokee pygmy tank. I am looking at doing a 20 gallon L, but have a few questions as I haven't kept any N.A. natives before.
-How many pygmies could I keep in this tank? (also male/female ratio) The place I found that sells them has them 8 for like $40.
-Would I be able to keep some kind of bottom feeder in with them like dwarf crayfish?
-What would be a good N.A. native killi to go with them? I would like to do a pair of them. Any from the same ecosystem as the Okefenokee?

The plant will be heavily planted. Mostly hornwort, frogbit or duckweed, java or xmas moss, ect...
Also would driftwood, rocks or both be more natural? I have a lot more research to do before getting them so any additional info would be appreciated as well.

*edit*
Thought of some more questions lol.
-Would a species of darter work with this tank instead of the killis?
-I have wanted some kind of newt or salamander forever now. I found florida peninsula newts and was wondering if they (or another eastern newt) would work in this setup. I know newts can secrete a toxin from their skin when injured or threatened, but they would be the largest animal in the tank and I have heard that they normally do well in community tanks with fish smaller than them.
-And for any one that has raised pygmy sunfish. Can they be slowly acclimated to flake and frozen food or would they always need live food.

Edited by Fatman, 10 July 2010 - 06:06 PM.

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#2 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 06:03 PM

I am hoping to start up an Okefenokee pygmy tank. I am looking at doing a 20 gallon L, but have a few questions as I haven't kept any N.A. natives before.
How many pygmies could I keep in this tank? (also male/female ratio)
Would I be able to keep some kind of bottom feeder in with them like dwarf crayfish?
What would be a good N.A. native killi to go with them? I would like to do a pair of them. Any from the same ecosystem as the Okefenokee?

The plant will be heavily planted. Mostly hornwort, frogbit or duckweed, java or xmas moss, ect...
Also would driftwood, rocks or both be more natural? I have a lot more research to do before getting them so any additional info would be appreciated as well.

hi Fatman, welcome to NANFA.
fatman here is a old article from our archive here @ nanfa.
By Maurice F. Mettee and Christopher Scharpf

http://www.nanfa.org.../elassoma.shtml

shoot this man a e-mail. his name is Paul Sachs.

http://www.aquaculturestore.com/

And for a general dose of tank knowledge try this site.

http://jonahsaquariu...te/contents.htm

good luck and i hope this may help.on a side note duckweed can get way out of hand fast.

Edited by CATfishTONY, 10 July 2010 - 06:13 PM.

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#3 Guest_bumpylemon_*

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 06:22 PM

one thing that I have read from members on here was its better to not put any other fish in the tanks with the sunfish do to their skittish behavior and they wouldnt be aggressive enough at feeding time to get enough food. i have no first hand experience with that. also heavily planting is a must....heavy as in NO open spaces. welcome to the forum. hopefully you will get involved and learn more about so many other species this country has to offer!

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#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 10 July 2010 - 07:21 PM

Welcome Fatman,

As a Georgia NANFA Member and a former keeper of Elassoma Okefenokee, I feel a responsibility to answer your questions...

I have successfully kept (including at least a couple of successful spawnings) about 6 individuals in a ten gallon tank (2 males 4 females). Not sure what size your 20 is, but like all fish, worry more about foot print than gallons when determiining stocking based on territory. I would not recommend keeping a crayfish (although some people think the dwarfs are OK I would not take the chance with pygmies. I would however, make sure that there are snails in your tank for that clean up duty (and also I have heard that the fish can feed on young snails). The only fish that I kept successfully with Elassoma are Letptolucnia ommata (te so called pygmy killifish)... these fish are equally docile and both fish seemed to thrive in the set up. And yes, they are form the same habitat. I can't quite recommend it yet, but I am also experimenting with Florida flagfish with Elassoma.

For decorations, or structure, wood would be more natural, but the mals do defend space and will take up residents in a cave if porvided. I have used stacked slate withough probleems. I have also used water lettuce (I know it is a bad invasive, but is already being sold at the aquarium store). The roots dangle down and provide a lot of cover for the pygmies.

I have not tried darters with them (although swamp darters are pretty non-agressive, and they do come from the same habitat... on the other hand swamps are just as crazy when it comes to feeding as most darters and may just be to disruptive.) I would definitely not try newts or salamanders.

I have not ever gotten them to eat flakes, but they do thrive and breed on frozen food. Live foods are not required (enjoyed certainly, but not required).

Hope that helps!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:46 PM

Thanks everyone!!!
The 20 gallon I am looking is a 20 long (30in x 12in x 12in).
So with everyone's feedback the plan is coming together.
My stocking plan so far would be:
Fish:
8 Okefenokees
Possibly a pair of either the swamp darters or pygmy killis
I also have plenty of ramshorn and pond snails in my shrimp tank that I could add to this one.
Plants:
Lots of Hornwort
Water Lettuce
Florida Frogbit or Duckweed
Some sort of moss
Some sort of stem plants
Structure:
A good amount of driftwood along with rocks with a sand bottom.
In my 120 gallon tank I have flower pots that have been covered with gravel. I could make a few more small ones to go in this tank as caves/hiding spots. Driftwood forming "caves" and slate are other options as well.
Their diet shouldn't be an issue as all of my fish already get both frozen food (bloodworms, brine shrimp, beef heart for my cichlids, ect...) and live black worms. If they do eat young snails then that would be another form of live food I can supply as well.
I will definitely leave out the crayfish and (reluctantly lol) the newt. Ghost shrimp were another option I was considering, but I have read that they will eat the pygmy fry.

I'll have to wait for a good paycheck to get this project started. Will probably get the tank cycled and planted and then slowly start stocking.

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#6 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 01:59 AM

Thanks everyone!!!
The 20 gallon I am looking is a 20 long (30in x 12in x 12in).
So with everyone's feedback the plan is coming together.
My stocking plan so far would be:
Fish:
8 Okefenokees
Possibly a pair of either the swamp darters or pygmy killis
I also have plenty of ramshorn and pond snails in my shrimp tank that I could add to this one.
Plants:
Lots of Hornwort
Water Lettuce
Florida Frogbit or Duckweed
Some sort of moss
Some sort of stem plants
Structure:
A good amount of driftwood along with rocks with a sand bottom.
In my 120 gallon tank I have flower pots that have been covered with gravel. I could make a few more small ones to go in this tank as caves/hiding spots. Driftwood forming "caves" and slate are other options as well.
Their diet shouldn't be an issue as all of my fish already get both frozen food (bloodworms, brine shrimp, beef heart for my cichlids, ect...) and live black worms. If they do eat young snails then that would be another form of live food I can supply as well.
I will definitely leave out the crayfish and (reluctantly lol) the newt. Ghost shrimp were another option I was considering, but I have read that they will eat the pygmy fry.

I'll have to wait for a good paycheck to get this project started. Will probably get the tank cycled and planted and then slowly start stocking.

I keep least killifish and banded pygmy sunfish in a 20 g. long with 5-6 ghost shrimp and a bunch of snails. I have many fry of both fishes and the ghost shrimp have not taken much of a toll if any. I do drop in shrimp pellets every couple of days to keep them fed. Also I have a good amount of live blackworms living in the substrate, they are easy food for anyone who is hungry.
I use the Walstad method/ Natural Planted Tank. My levels are perfect when I do water tests. I only do partial water changes every 6 months or so. I use no filter or powerhead on this tank.
The key is heavy planting, moss, duckweed or salvia or water lettuce (the moss and floating plants with masses of fine roots provide breeding grounds for tiny creatures that fry eat), leafy plants, and a sand substrate. In tanks with gravel my fry numbers were low. I have read that they can get stuck in the gravel. The fry are extremely tiny. -Little specks really.
I have probably about 20 banded pygmies and 10 killis in this tank, no problem. I have pygmy killies in another tank with swamp darters. I like Pygmy Killifish. They are very docile.
In my experience plants are the most important part of an Evergladei set up, caves would just take up valuable planting space.
You know what they say about opinions though...
Enjoy!

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#7 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 04:29 PM

Wow! I figured I wouldn't need a heater, but I'm surprised that no filter is needed lol. I have a few extra ones laying around though. Would it be beneficial to add one (I would cover the intake so that fry don't get sucked in) or would it create too much water movement? If I don't use a HOB filter, would an airstone or sponge filter be needed?

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#8 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 04:38 PM

A tank planted as heavily as recommended above shouldn't need a filter to remove nitrate/phosphate and leftover food. A little water movement may be beneficial, such as an airstone might provide, but a pump certainly would be disruptive to fry. I think you'd want to encourage a certain amount of mulm and green water with its associated invertebrates, especially if breeding is a goal. I've collected Okefenokee twice in the wild, and Elassoma zonatum lots of times, and they are definitely most abundant in slack or stagnant water in piles of mulm, leaves, plant roots andother debris.

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#9 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 01:37 AM

Ok. That's good to know.
I think I have the planning for the fauna pretty much down. The plan is to start with 4 pygmy killis and 8 sunfish. Along with a good amount of snails, a few ghost shrimp and I like the idea of keeping live blackworms in the tank to be eaten.

The next set of question mostly has to do with plants and aquascaping.
I have already bought water lettuce to be used in this tank. I also have duckweed and hornwort and will most likely also get salvinia and frogbit as well.
Would dwarf sag and mexican oak leaf be good additions to this tank?
How much driftwood should I do in this tank? Should I use a few small pieces and allow for a lot more plants, or should I create a good amount of cover with driftwood and plant as much as possible around them? I think I'm leading towards more plants...
My last question is how strong should the lighting be on this tank? I would like as much lighting as possible for the plants, but I haven't found anything on whether the sunfish prefer bright or subdued lighting...

Thanks for all the help everyone!!! This tank has gone from a curiosity to actually being set in motion in a VERY short time and I definitely owe that to all the help I have gotten on this forum. Hopefully before too long I'll be updating on how this tank is doing instead of asking so many questions lol.

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#10 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 03:04 AM

Ok so I lied..... 1 more question for tonight then its time for bed lol.

I want to do sand substrate in this tank, but aside from the fish waste I would like to add to make sure there are more nutrients available for the plants. Especially because of the probability that this tank will probably get setup and planted for atleast a bit before I add fish.
What I'm wondering though is whether I could use a thin layer of soil (just from the backyard) under the sand, or is there a better solution... Fluorite is a bit out of my budget right now, but I know at work we have some sort of gravel made by API that slowly releases nutrients. Any better solutions???

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#11 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 04:45 AM

I think you'll find most people on this forum to be fans of soil substrate (mostly soil with just enough sand on top to keep it in place). Soil does an excellent job of providing nutrients, and it also contains enough nitrifying bacteria to provide a biofilter effect. If you go this route, you may want to avoid burrowing creatures like the Malaysian trumpet snails that may be found hitchhiking on commercial plants, since they'll stir up the dirt. Even blackworms may over time mix the sand into the lower layers, but if the current in the tank is slight enough to keep the soil settled out I think it would still look good.

If the tank is to be planted very long before fish are added I would still feed a couple drops of ammonia each day to make sure the bacteria stay healthy. Decaying material in the soil may provide that, depending where you get it.

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#12 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 02:25 PM

Then I will most likely use a layer of soil under the sand. Not sure how long this tank would be planted before adding fish. If it is very long though I will add ammonia for the bacteria though.

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#13 Guest_bumpylemon_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 02:49 PM

Then I will most likely use a layer of soil under the sand. Not sure how long this tank would be planted before adding fish. If it is very long though I will add ammonia for the bacteria though.

good info here. as i will be doing the exact same methods here described.

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#14 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:31 AM

I will have to post a picture of my tank. I have a filter, and light on my tank along with DIY Co2. It is heavily planted with vals, which isn't the best plant for these fish, but a lot of the plants I would want to keep are now illegal to have in our state. Will post picture later tonight.

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#15 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:26 PM

Thanks! A picture would be great!

I have my floating plants bought. They should be here sometime this week. So far I have bought water lettuce, salvinia and frogbit.
I am going to put in an order for the rest of the plants. These will include dwarf sag, red cabomba, hornwort, mexican oak leaf and dwarf lily.

What I am wondering about is how much lighting should I use on this tank? The floating plants will pretty much cover the surface of the water so I'm not sure how much light I will need so that the rooted plants get enough light though. I will probably be using T8 fluorescent lighting (but T5 is a possibility). One place recommended 2wpg, but they didn't take into account the type of lighting or the floating plants...

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#16 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:30 PM

Here is my 20 gallon long that housed 20 Elassoma Zonatums about 3 years ago.
[attachment=10763:104_3990.JPG]

and my 8 gallon I am working on to get ready for some okee's:
[attachment=10764:DSCN4834.JPG]

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#17 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:18 PM

Wow both of those tanks look really great. I think I pretty much have everything worked out so far. I'm just looking for driftwood now. Think I am going to try and collect some though instead of shelling out the cash for it lol. Luckily there should be a few places around here where I can get it legally.

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#18 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:27 PM

there are a TON of plants I would like to get for my tanks, but they are illegal to possess in the state.. I understand the stricter laws, but it seriously is hurting what fish we can really keep. Cabomba, Hornwort, water lettuce, water sprite are all on a no keep list (atleast that is what I read last time I was at my LFS.)

I cannot wait to see your pictures!

List of unkeepable plants in WI : elodea (a.k.a. anacharis), cabomba, foxtail, parrot's feather, water lettuce and flowering rush,

And with the driftwood, I collect 100% of mine. That way I know exactly what the piece looks like before I consider adding it to my tank.

Edited by NVCichlids, 13 July 2010 - 10:29 PM.

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#19 Guest_Fatman_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:41 PM

Wow! I have hornwort in almost all of my tanks. It does such a great job of keeping my nitrates low. Especially in my goldfish tank.
In fact those are all plants that I either have or that we sell at work.

On the driftwood I am really hoping to find some good pieces. Generally I find good piece at places where I can't take them and nothing worth bringing home at the places where I can lol.

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#20 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:01 AM

Najas guadalupensis, sold as "guppy grass" is easy to grow in high or low light, rooted or floating, and soft to hard water. Because it is native throughout most of North America I suspect it is not on any state prohibited lists, but I havent checked. It's one of my favorite plants for Elassoma tanks and tropical fish breeding tanks.