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How to breed orange throated darters? (Etheostoma spectabile)

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Jul 12 2010 02:48 PM

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#1 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 02:48 PM

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Hi, my name's Erica, and I'm new to darter keeping. I read that darters have short lifespans, and I'd like to breed my Etheostoma spectabile to keep the population stable. Have you ever bred darters? If so, could you describe the tank conditions at the time they bred, and maybe some tips on how to raise the fry? Thank you

Background information about my tank:
(If you spot anything super wrong that would stop them from breeding or living a happy life, please tell me.)
I have a 55 gallon planted aquarium that is four feet long by one foot or so wide, and about two or maybe three feet tall. The substrate is mixed kitty litter (Special Kitty brand with no additives, just baked clay), pea sized gravel, aragonite, and large spiral shells. Substrate ranges from a quarter inch to five inches in depth. Plants are hornwort and anarchis. Other fish: Swordtails (20) and bettas (6). The tank pH is 8.4, ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm, nitrate was between 5 and 10 ppm yesterday when I measured it, CO2 is around 2 ppm, and temperature is 70 F. Heater is available if temperature needs to be raised. KH is I think 6 degrees of hardness but I'm not sure exactly. Filtration and current come from two waterfall filters, one rated for a 40-70 gallon tank and one rated for 35-60 gallon tank. There is a visible current in three fourths of the tank. The anarchis area has no noticable current. The area right under the big filter has a moderately strong current. Lighting is currently two 18 inch fluorescent bulbs, 5000 K, but I plan to double that with a custom lighting modification soon. Lights are on for 12 hours a day. I gravel vacuum the tank once a week, but I could reduce that if vacuuming would suck up the eggs. It probably wouldn't affect the water quality; the hornwort sucks up all the nitrates. My plan is to have 5 male Etheostoma spectabile and 5 females. I feed the tank twice a day with adult sized flakes and about five times a day with ground up BettaMin flakes, the really red ones. I feed the fish dried bloodworms about once every two or three days, and sinking shrimp pellets about every two days as well.

Edited by Okiimiru, 12 July 2010 - 02:59 PM.

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#2 Guest_bumpylemon_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 02:53 PM

one thing i can quickly add is that those fish will eat the fry of the darters. i believe you will not need a heater....if anything you need to go colder. you will have to change your lighting to simulate winter...then to simulate spring to induce spawning. id suggest doing a full native tank and removing exotics. thats what i did when i first started out. welcome to the forum!!

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#3 Guest_exasperatus2002_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 03:06 PM

`

Hi, my name's Erica, and I'm new to darter keeping. I read that darters have short lifespans, and I'd like to breed my Etheostoma spectabile to keep the population stable. Have you ever bred darters? If so, could you describe the tank conditions at the time they bred, and maybe some tips on how to raise the fry? Thank you

Background information about my tank:
(If you spot anything super wrong that would stop them from breeding or living a happy life, please tell me.)
I have a 55 gallon planted aquarium that is four feet long by one foot or so wide, and about two or maybe three feet tall. The substrate is mixed kitty litter (Special Kitty brand with no additives, just baked clay), pea sized gravel, aragonite, and large spiral shells. Substrate ranges from a quarter inch to five inches in depth. Plants are hornwort and anarchis. Other fish: Swordtails (20) and bettas (6). The tank pH is 8.4, ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm, nitrate was between 5 and 10 ppm yesterday when I measured it, CO2 is around 2 ppm, and temperature is 70 F. Heater is available if temperature needs to be raised. KH is I think 6 degrees of hardness but I'm not sure exactly. Filtration and current come from two waterfall filters, one rated for a 40-70 gallon tank and one rated for 35-60 gallon tank. There is a visible current in three fourths of the tank. The anarchis area has no noticable current. The area right under the big filter has a moderately strong current. Lighting is currently two 18 inch fluorescent bulbs, 5000 K, but I plan to double that with a custom lighting modification soon. Lights are on for 12 hours a day. I gravel vacuum the tank once a week, but I could reduce that if vacuuming would suck up the eggs. It probably wouldn't affect the water quality; the hornwort sucks up all the nitrates. My plan is to have 5 male Etheostoma spectabile and 5 females. I feed the tank twice a day with adult sized flakes and about five times a day with ground up BettaMin flakes, the really red ones. I feed the fish dried bloodworms about once every two or three days, and sinking shrimp pellets about every two days as well.

wow, I've never heard on anyone using cat litter before for substrate. How well does it work? Does the water get murky during water changes?

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#4 Guest_MrCatfish_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 03:17 PM

Okiimiru I noticed in another post you said that you never see your darter's eat. For now they are most likely eating your population of snails. Sooner or later they will consume your population. Then they will need to be fed something else. I have very seldom seen darters eat anything but live or frozen foods,bloodworms,blackworms,mosquito larve,daphnia,scuds,and others. So I would consider adding some of these to their diet. I would do this soon to if you won't to keep some of your snails.

Edited by MrCatfish, 12 July 2010 - 03:18 PM.

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#5 Guest_donkeyman876_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 03:45 PM

Never had any darters but I thought I would say welcome to the forum. I hope you find all of the info you need. Best of luck with the darters!! Cool darters, I just found them on youtube!! Where did you get them?

Edited by donkeyman876, 12 July 2010 - 03:46 PM.

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#6 Guest_schambers_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 04:17 PM

Welcome to the forum! That's not a real good mix of fish you have. The temperature will be too warm for the darters if you use a heater. If you do get the darters to breed, the fry will get eaten. You probably will need a darter only tank, and may need to remove the adults after spawn. But I've never spawned darters, I'm speaking in general.

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#7 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 06:05 PM

wow, I've never heard on anyone using cat litter before for substrate. How well does it work? Does the water get murky during water changes?

Kitty litter works great! I love it. I use Walmart's Special Kitty brand, which is just baked clay with no additives. It cost me four dollars for forty pounds, quite a deal so far as fish substrates go. Avoid litter brands that have any ingredients other than pure clay. Jamie Johnson, a bored fishkeeper with access to a lab, did a substrate CEC (cation exchange capacity) analysis that convinced me to try kitty litter in my aquarium. Here's the hyperlink: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html
The one piece of advice I could give is that I tried to rinse off the kitty litter before I put it the tank. Don't do that. There's no point in rinsing because although you do rinse away the smallest pieces, you also break down the bigger pieces into new small pieces, and you actually do nothing. So, yeah, don't rinse it, just put it right in. Here's a forum with someone growing plants with pure Special Kitty kitty litter substrate: http://www.plantedta...trate-i-do.html In my opinion, it's best to mix the litter with something else. It can compact together if you have it all by itself.
The water did get a little murky when the kitty litter was first added (I poured it in, that's why. If you pour water on top of it instead of adding it to an aquarium full of water, it wouldn't be so bad). And when I gravel vacuum, it can be a bit murky if I purposefully try to stir it up. But overall, I would say that murkiness is not really an issue at all now that I've had the kitty litter for a while and have gravel siphoned it a few times. It got exponentially less murky over time.

Okiimiru I noticed in another post you said that you never see your darter's eat. For now they are most likely eating your population of snails. Sooner or later they will consume your population.

That would be AWESOME! I would totally love it if the darters ate all of my Physa fontinalis and ramshorn snails. I've been scooping them out of my tank every few weeks and selling them on aquabid for nearly a year now, and I can't say they'd be missed. yaaaaaay

you will have to change your lighting to simulate winter...then to simulate spring to induce spawning.

How do I change my lighting to induce seasons?
Also, today just after posting this I went to Home Depot and bought a 4 foot long fluorescent light, two long tube lights with 700 lumens each. Then I rigged the tank to have both the previous lights (two 18 inch fluorescent lights) and the new long lights. When they're all turned on, it's reeeeaaallly bright, like the tanks the aquatic gardener's association has on their aquascaping contest. I might not keep all of the lights on all the time, but it's nice to have that capability. Probably half of the lights will be on during the majority of the day. It just looks so awesome with all the lights on at once ::heart::

Cool darters, I just found them on youtube!! Where did you get them?

I got the darters from Brian Zimmerman through aquabid. I think he's a member of NANFA, too, because I saw his name on a forum. He's a great person and he shipped me really healthy fish.

one thing i can quickly add is that those fish will eat the fry of the darters.

I hope the fry won't get eaten. The tank is heavily planted and it's designed so that the swordtails can't physically squeeze into the areas where the babies hide. Here's a (kind of old) photo: http://img.photobuck...imiru/048-1.jpg The tank is a little less heavily planted now than it was then. That photo was taken four months or so ago. The anarchis died off a little after a Furan 2 treatment and I replaced the giant stick with a pvc frame for suspending the hornwort. I'm going to have to take another photo. Hmm. *will update later with new photo*

Edited by Okiimiru, 12 July 2010 - 06:10 PM.

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#8 Guest_bumpylemon_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 06:09 PM

a better deal than 4 dollars for 40lbs is free at the local lake or creek...plus it comes with free critters for the fish to eat :mrgreen:

i still will say that no matter how planted your tank is a fish is going to eat the fry. i dont know exactly where you are but just wanted you to be aware there are orangethroats and many other species of darters available in your area free. catching them i believe is the most fun about having a native aquarium.

Edited by bumpylemon, 12 July 2010 - 06:11 PM.

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#9 Guest_MrCatfish_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 06:40 PM

How do I change my lighting to induce seasons?

Shorten the time the lights are on for winter. And then gradually increase the time.

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#10 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 06:51 PM

Shorten the time the lights are on for winter. And then gradually increase the time.

aaaaah. Okay. The tank is in front of a window, now that I think of it. Maybe I'll turn the tank lights on when dawn breaks, and turn them off at dusk. That wouldn't have occurred to me, thank you.

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#11 Guest_donkeyman876_*

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 08:27 PM

aaaaah. Okay. The tank is in front of a window, now that I think of it. Maybe I'll turn the tank lights on when dawn breaks, and turn them off at dusk. That wouldn't have occurred to me, thank you.

If it's by a window you may not even need the lights on atall, they just generate unnecessary heat unless you are looking at them.

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#12 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 12 July 2010 - 08:37 PM

Okiimiru I noticed in another post you said that you never see your darter's eat. For now they are most likely eating your population of snails. Sooner or later they will consume your population. Then they will need to be fed something else. I have very seldom seen darters eat anything but live or frozen foods,bloodworms,blackworms,mosquito larve,daphnia,scuds,and others. So I would consider adding some of these to their diet. I would do this soon to if you won't to keep some of your snails.

Just FYI, I've had lots of darters eat flakes... particularly if you can drop them into the ourflow of the filter so they "dance around some" in the water column... then once they get used to the idea, they will recognize you and the food to come and eat with no problem... not sure if you could get them to breed on flake (but you might if you had a very high protein flake, like an earthworm flake).

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#13 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:08 AM

Here is the picture of the tank's current setup, as promised:

Edited by Uland, 13 July 2010 - 02:18 PM.

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#14 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:19 AM

Can you resize that image please? Once you do so, I'll delete the original.

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#15 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 01:12 PM

Sorry about the size of the previous picture. Here's a smaller image of the tank with the pre-existing lights.

0001.jpg 92.35KB 0 downloads

Edited by Okiimiru, 13 July 2010 - 01:17 PM.

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#16 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 01:16 PM

And here are the new lights.

00007.JPG 80.61KB 0 downloads

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#17 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 01:28 PM

Just FYI, I've had lots of darters eat flakes... particularly if you can drop them into the ourflow of the filter so they "dance around some" in the water column... then once they get used to the idea, they will recognize you and the food to come and eat with no problem... not sure if you could get them to breed on flake (but you might if you had a very high protein flake, like an earthworm flake).

I'm trying to wean them onto prepared food. I sat with the fish last night for an hour and a half and slowly fed them sinking shrimp pellets, like one every five minutes. The swordtails all recognized the pellets as food. They kept swimming to the bottom and swarming around the food, all excited. The darters could smell that something edible was nearby. They kept looking around, perched up on their front fins, eager to find whatever it was that smelled so great. For the first half hour, that's all that happened. The darters would peer around at rocks and snails, trying to figure out what was going on. Eventually they started randomly biting inanimate objects, trying to find the food. Some got frustrated and started eating small ramshorn snails, the first time I've actually witnessed that happen. After an hour and a half, the darters had eaten about five or ten baby snails and I was worried about adding too much food at one time to the aquarium. My attempt to teach the darters that pellets are edible wasn't all that successful, but I think I'll try again tonight and see if they can figure it out. I'll try the flakes in the current. You're right, that might work better, because they can see the flakes move.

Edited by Okiimiru, 13 July 2010 - 01:28 PM.

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#18 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 13 July 2010 - 01:44 PM

I think that shrimp pellets are too hard or maybe dense for the darters, and too big to eat whole, so sometimes they do not eat them... although I do have a large male bluebreast (Etheostoma camurum) that steals them right from under the noses of the bluehead chubs (who they were intended for) and then he will carry one or two around in his mouth until they begin to disolve... but in general that takes too much patience for darters, who really just want to hunt and munch something. Flakes work and some smaller pellets work too as long as they can pick them up in one bite.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#19 Guest_schambers_*

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:14 PM

Many of my fish will eat the Wardley Shrimp Pellets. They disintegrate into tiny pieces after a few minutes. I try to drop them in front of a powerhead so the bits move around. Once the darters figure out they are food, they like them.

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#20 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 06:02 AM

Many of my fish will eat the Wardley Shrimp Pellets. They disintegrate into tiny pieces after a few minutes. I try to drop them in front of a powerhead so the bits move around. Once the darters figure out they are food, they like them.

Those are the pellets I use. I'm glad to hear they'll like them eventually. Right now they still prefer snails.